What if the USA army focused on heavy tanks in WWII?

I once made a thread about Edna Chaffesurviving to WWII and how he could have changed the tank doctrine, and many people tough of how the USA armor corps could have developed with a focus on heavy tanks.

Let's say that for some reason, by the time the USA joins the war, their armored forces are focused on heavy tanks, and by the end of the war the main USA tank is the Pershing. What this would change in the war? Could the USA get the fame for having the best WWII tanks?
 
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You would need US high command to change their overall doctrine of war for this to be feasible. Due to all the varied fronts US high command predicted they would need to fight on (and they did end up needing to fight on) , they wanted a versatile tank that could feasibly fight in many environments. Heavy tanks would be successful in Europe, but can you imagine landing Heavy tanks on Iwo Jima? Of course, a change in doctrine where the US focuses on Europe, seeing Germany as the bigger threat than Japan, is definitely plausible, and US high command could very well go with Heavy tanks to counter German armour. Alternatively, they could go with the early Soviet doctrine of tanks, and rather than create a few generally versatile tank models, create many highly specialized models. You would see more heavy tanks in this scenario, with several models and variations to get specific tasks done.
 
Getting heavy tanks in the number it would have taken to counter German armor would've been a logistical nightmare. This is a non-starter.
 
Let's say that for some reason, by the time the USA joins the war, their armored forces are focused on heavy tanks

The problem is threefold. The first is the obvious "problems with shipping them around the world". The second two are:

-"Heavy" by prewar standards means something a lot different than "heavy" by even midwar standards.
-There's simply not that much prewar money for big, extravagant tanks.
 
You would need US high command to change their overall doctrine of war for this to be feasible. Due to all the varied fronts US high command predicted they would need to fight on (and they did end up needing to fight on) , they wanted a versatile tank that could feasibly fight in many environments. Heavy tanks would be successful in Europe, but can you imagine landing Heavy tanks on Iwo Jima? Of course, a change in doctrine where the US focuses on Europe, seeing Germany as the bigger threat than Japan, is definitely plausible, and US high command could very well go with Heavy tanks to counter German armour. Alternatively, they could go with the early Soviet doctrine of tanks, and rather than create a few generally versatile tank models, create many highly specialized models. You would see more heavy tanks in this scenario, with several models and variations to get specific tasks done.

Getting heavy tanks in the number it would have taken to counter German armor would've been a logistical nightmare. This is a non-starter.

What if they go for heavy tanks in Europe and light-medium on Asia?

Also, the usa industry is twice the German one, can't they deploy more heavy tanks than the Germans can in normal+heavy tanks?
 

marathag

Banned
but can you imagine landing Heavy tanks on Iwo Jima?
I can
USS NEWPORT (LST-1179)

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Marine M103 on a Beach
1427px-Amerikaans-Spaanse_marine-oefeningen%2C_Bestanddeelnr_917-0691.jpg

That's 65 tons of fun. 10" frontal Armor
Marines got 220 of them, and Army got 80. Each Tank Battalion got one M103 Company
 
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marathag

Banned
The problem is threefold. The first is the obvious "problems with shipping them around the world". The second two are:

-"Heavy" by prewar standards means something a lot different than "heavy" by even midwar standards.
-There's simply not that much prewar money for big, extravagant tanks.
The first plan for a 'modern' Heavy Tank after the Liberty of 1918 never made it past paper, but would have been a big 60 ton unit with multiple turrets, in Soviet T-35/ French Char 2C fashion.

Before the War, there wasn't even money for M2 Medium Tanks, that had awful upper hull onto of what would be the most reliable Chassis the US ever did, the M3/M4 Family
By 1940, it gelled as the T1 with a single turret, but many MGs in the Hull, and the 3" and 37mm in the Turret
Ready for Production, Standardized at the M6, just before Pearl Harbor.

If the USA could ship Locomotives to the USSR, Heavy Tanks aren't the problem.
 
Most dock cranes at the time maxed out at around 40t so no, this is a nogo for anything you want in quantity and the army was well aware of this.
 
The first plan for a 'modern' Heavy Tank after the Liberty of 1918 never made it past paper, but would have been a big 60 ton unit with multiple turrets, in Soviet T-35/ French Char 2C fashion.

Before the War, there wasn't even money for M2 Medium Tanks, that had awful upper hull onto of what would be the most reliable Chassis the US ever did, the M3/M4 Family
By 1940, it gelled as the T1 with a single turret, but many MGs in the Hull, and the 3" and 37mm in the Turret
Ready for Production, Standardized at the M6, just before Pearl Harbor.

If the USA could ship Locomotives to the USSR, Heavy Tanks aren't the problem.

And what would be the results? Imagine operation torch happening with heavy tanks.
 
The US was and is a lot better off concentrating on mediums rather then heavies, given they proved to ultimately be a dead-end.

Marines got 220 of them, and Army got 80. Each Tank Battalion got one M103 Company

So they got them in numbers that are basically irrelevant in a war the size of WW2?
 
What if they go for heavy tanks in Europe and light-medium on Asia?

Also, the usa industry is twice the German one, can't they deploy more heavy tanks than the Germans can in normal+heavy tanks?
Germany is in Europe, the United States is not, they have to ship their tanks across the Atlantic first to get them to Europe, Germany does not. 60 ton tanks prove much greater challenge with shipping than 30 ton tanks, it can be done but as shipping is the bottleneck for basically everything you don't do it lightly. The issue is not so much raw weight as the weight of a single object, to transport OTL Shermans there were specialized variants of the Liberty ship to handle 30 ton tanks, transporting a 60 tons Heavy would require more modifications
If the USA could ship Locomotives to the USSR, Heavy Tanks aren't the problem.
That depends, how did they transport them? Specialized Locomotive carrying ships? Disassembled? The former, well only so many specialized ships, shipping 2,000 Locomotives is one thing, shipping those and thousands of tanks is another. The Latter? Well now you need to reassemble them, which is more labor on both ends that was not needed OTL
 

marathag

Banned
The US was and is a lot better off concentrating on mediums rather then heavies, given they proved to ultimately be a dead-end.



So they got them in numbers that are basically irrelevant in a war the size of WW2?
225 Jumbos had a real impact on the latter part of 1944

One fully restored example
 

Riain

Banned
I find the logistics and shipping objections laughable.

Its the USA in WW2 FFS!

If they decided to build 5000 M6s and send heavy tank units to Europe then they'd make it happen. Have a liitle faith people.
 
I find the logistics and shipping objections laughable.

Its the USA in WW2 FFS!

If they decided to build 5000 M6s and send heavy tank units to Europe then they'd make it happen. Have a liitle faith people.

There is that tank mission on the new battlefield game where the narration says that some times Tiger pilots run out of ammo and had to retreat while facing Shermans.

Imagine a Tiger ace trying to fight a Pershing? The tiger legendary status would be broken.
 
There is that tank mission on the new battlefield game where the narration says that some times Tiger pilots run out of ammo and had to retreat while facing Shermans.

Imagine a Tiger ace trying to fight a Pershing? The tiger legendary status would be broken.
... Are you really using a mass market video game notorious for its arcade style approach to combat and whose every launch sees legions of people complaining about historical accuracy or lack thereof to illustrate your understanding of WW2 tanks and their effectiveness? You need to read an actual book or get some citations from something other than a video game for children.

The actual historical record is that the American Sherman tanks generally beat their Tiger opponents in almost every engagement. By contrast ironically the first time a Tiger ran into the Pershing at Cologne in 1945, the Pershing lost. Admittedly due to the Pershing being caught in terrible circumstances and surprised, but still an amusing anecdote. The Americans didn't need Pershings to beat Tigers and that "legendary status" was due to propaganda and Allied conflation of anything with a Tiger or an 88mm gun, and not the actual performance and impact of the Tigers against the Allies.

I find the logistics and shipping objections laughable.

Its the USA in WW2 FFS!

If they decided to build 5000 M6s and send heavy tank units to Europe then they'd make it happen. Have a liitle faith people.
Sure you could, but what's the point? The M6 was a worse tank than the Sherman, since it was taller - and the Sherman was already quite tall - the frontal armor was peppered with weaknesses and was probably worse than the Sherman's anyway, since the frontal armor at 82.5mm @ 35 degrees from vertical is only slightly better in in nominal armor values than late model Shermans which had 64mm @ 47 degrees from vertical, so 100.71mm vs. 93.84 - and that's before the greater tendency of shells to ricochet from the Sherman's armor due to the way WW2 arlor piercing ammunition works is taken into account. Gasoline tanks high in the hull so if it does get penetrated, it is going to burn a lot more than the Sherman, and the side armor is painfully weak for a heavy tank - 44mm, which means any German anti-tank gun, even 37mms, are going to slice right through. That's to be expected on a medium tank, but on a heavy tank that weighs twice the Sherman's weight it is simply sad.

More men needed to man it, far worse strategic mobility since there are going to be a lot more bridges and railroads that don't accept it due to the increased size, not even mentioning the fact that you'd have to have much more expensive landing vessels. In shipping you can get away with just shipping 1 heavy tank instead of 2 medium tanks, and sure that means you've slashed your tank force by half all other things being equal, but if you're on a landing craft you simply cannot use the smaller landing craft since it will just fall through the bottom. The British built high quality landing craft for the Churchill but they were apparently expensive enough to compete in construction resources with escort vessels. And despite brushing aside concerns about production resources, the fact is that the Western Allies had a major bottleneck for landing capacity and Overlord's late date was greatly in reason of the need to accumulate enough landing craft. Plus worse operational range even if all of this is taken aside, and far higher gasoline consumption, so things like the American blitz across France are going to be far slower, and their logistics crisis in late 1944 worse.

And of course, the M6 was armed with the same gun as the Shermans were late-war, the 76mm, so the armament isn't any better - it just also has a useless 37mm cannon, and an additional M2 Browning machine gun. The isn't anything that the M6 does significantly better than the M4, and when you take into account the much bigger size and weight and all the other problems, I'd say that just in pure combat performance, and nothing to do with industrial concerns and production, it is worse than the Sherman. So in the end you're paying far more for a worse tank, and you have much fewer tanks at the front, so your tank units continue to suffer casualties at the same rate as before, but there are a lot fewer of them so casualties among infantry deprived of tanks to support them is going to be much higher (especially since 75mm armored Sherman tanks are straight up better at this than the M6 heavy tank since the 75mm gun has a superior HE round), and you have fewer divisions and less ability to mass tanks so overall combat effectiveness is massively reduced. There were some M6 tanks that were tested with 90mm guns, but then Sherman tanks were tested for the 90mm too with that starting as early as late 1942, and they could fit it on, so if you really want to get a 90mm armed tank into battle, just have the Sherman 90mm program happen.

All in all a truly horrible idea and it is a good thing Americans stuck to their Shermans. A better heavy tank might be justifiable although even then the Sherman is probably better, the M6 heavy tank is simply put a joke and monstrosity and it is a damn good thing it never saw combat.
 
225 Jumbos had a real impact on the latter part of 1944

While well-liked tactically, there is no evidence that they had any meaningful on impact on the operational or strategic level compared to the much more massive numbers of regular Sherman '75s and 76's. Given the paltry numbers, this is hardly surprising. A few hundred AFVs is nothing.
 
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Are you really using a mass market video game notorious for its arcade style approach to combat and whose every launch sees legions of people complaining about historical accuracy or lack thereof to illustrate your understanding of WW2 tanks and their effectiveness? You need to read an actual book or get some citations from something other than a video game for children.

No, and it's a extreme case of bad faith for you to think that.
 
While well-liked tactically, there is no evidence that they had any meaningful on impact on the operational or strategic level compared to the much more massive numbers of regular Sherman '75s and 76's. Given the paltry numbers, this is hardly surprising. A few hundred AFVs is nothing.
While I more or less agree with you, I have read several accounts over the years that speak of the Jumbos having an importance that was significantly greater than their limited numbers might imply. I doubt the final result would have been different without them but they appear to have been popular with the Americans and apparently their thicker frontal armor was thick enough to pose significant difficulties for many German AT weapons.
 
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