Despite everything, I like TL where it's NATO vs. the Third Reich and we have DDay in the 1960s. Sometimes I think about it from the perspective of the recreated Polish army in the West.
 
@Kaiser of Brazil Is there any hope for this timeline? Everybody involved is either corrupt, incompetent, fantastical, colonized, genocidal, going to war, about to be a war zone or heading in that direction. India is honestly the only country you can somewhat cheer for. All the people in each nation you can like are either dead, useless or about to die. This world is so bleak that I won’t be surprised if it ends with a nuclear blast hitting the world. The end scene being a lonely woman in the winter trying to speak broken German to the ashes of her children. It’s just why? Let there be light please.
This is my biggest problem with this timeline so far. Anytime there's a chance for something to get better, even marginally, a MacGuffin gets thrown in to keep the timeline as dark as possible. Kennedy seems like a popular candidate that can finally unseat the populists, Nazi mistress. Hoffa is trying to rally the American left, gets whacked by the mob. Israel pulls off a miraculous win against the Syrians and Arabs, Nazis take half the country anyway. Nazis are almost drawn into a full blown civil war that ends with a nuclear bomb going off outside Berlin, totally fine with business as usual because it's time to crush the Russians again. Northern liberals being totally okay with the death of civil rights?!

Like come on man something has to give at some point or something actually has to change. Or is this entire timeline "Nazis always win despite everything going against them, the rest of the world loves Nazism and integralism, and America has to keep falling into darkness"? Like I understand the desire to not have a rinse and repeat of most Nazi win cold war stories, nor am I expecting some epic wholesome comeback. But it seems like there is a need to just throw in MacGuffins to subvert expectations and keep things grimdark. It feels like the first time I watched Seasons 7 and 8 of Game of Thrones.

That said I do enjoy this timeline and the writing quality is excellent, but I fear it's not going anywhere.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it almost seems worse because so many other characters survive the same things that happen to others. MLK gets shot, dead. Huey Long gets shot, needs a cane but he's fine. So fine that he even comes out of retirement
 
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I believe it is a mistake for people to write Nazi Victory stories like, say, Thousand Week Reich, where the Nazis get beaten after a bloody war and the "natural order" is restored. It's basically saying that, despite all the loss, the "good side" will eventually always come back and win when history has repeatedly shown that's not the case.
I love this timeline, i want to say that now, and i think you do an excellent job in showing a world much worse than our own, but that still feels like our own, like you can recognise the worse aspects of ourselves in the timeline. however i think you can still have a deeply dystopian timeline, without the good guys (in this case by default) america, collapsing and basically making the nazis the winners of the cold war.

i suspect once huey dies, america will go through a rude awakening as without their figure head the populists end up breaking down, maybe we get a 'phonix rises' moment for america, where after the choas they emerge, shaken, scarred, but still a (somewhat) free society, trying to learn from its failiures and take the fight to the nazi and commie menaces. i think the best case for america is a 'permanently 1940/50s red grey scare mentality, were conformity and convertaism is enforced through social coercion.

any way, i look forward, and dread to see where this timeline goes.
 
This is my biggest problem with this timeline so far. Anytime there's a chance for something to get better, even marginally, a MacGuffin gets thrown in to keep the timeline as dark as possible. Kennedy seems like a popular candidate that can finally unseat the populists, Nazi mistress. Hoffa is trying to rally the American left, gets whacked by the mob. Israel pulls off a miraculous win against the Syrians and Arabs, Nazis take half the country anyway. Nazis are almost drawn into a full blown civil war that ends with a nuclear bomb going off outside Berlin, totally fine with business as usual because it's time to crush the Russians again. Northern liberals being totally okay with the death of civil rights?!

Like come on man something has to give at some point or something actually has to change. Or is this entire timeline "Nazis always win despite everything going against them, the rest of the world loves Nazism and integralism, and America has to keep falling into darkness"? Like I understand the desire to not have a rinse and repeat of most Nazi win cold war stories, nor am I expecting some epic wholesome comeback. But it seems like there is a need to just throw in MacGuffins to subvert expectations and keep things grimdark. It feels like the first time I watched Seasons 7 and 8 of Game of Thrones.
Honestly considering how in OTL several nations had history way worse than this with Russia and China both having horrible past 200 years or more it frankly does not seem like much. I mean why should America avoid any suffering?

Also you are acting as if this has not happened before in history, which considering the Bronze Age collapse, the fall of the Alexandrian empire, the Fall of Rome, the constant state of war in Europe, the multiple generation long Chinese Civil War and so much more, this timeline is frankly not much worse off compared to most of our history.
 
Besides some people surviving gunshots with "minor" side effects and people being shoot and fucking dying is just how it works irl too, some people survive sometimes with great scars affecting their health and a lot of people just...dont
 
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Besides some people surviving gunshots with "minor" side effects and people being shoot and fucking dying is just how it works irl too, some people survive sometimes with great scars affecting their health and a lot of people just...dont
Yeah, but kaiser deliberately chooses to have more "good/positive" (using quotes because I know that is a big generalization) get killed off while characters like Huey just keep chugging along. Unless they've got a bunch of names attached to a spinning wheel and kill off characters based on whoever gets chosen... which admittedly would be kinda funny.
 
Yeah, but kaiser deliberately chooses to have more "good/positive" (using quotes because I know that is a big generalization) get killed off while characters like Huey just keep chugging along. Unless they've got a bunch of names attached to a spinning wheel and kill off characters based on whoever gets chosen... which admittedly would be kinda funny.
I kinda agree but it seems more like the situation in general is bad due to previous bad actions since a lot of things are allowed due to the previous actions making it easier for people/factions/nations to get away with it.
 
, but kaiser deliberately chooses to have more "good/positive" (using quotes because I know that is a big generalization) get killed off while characters like Huey just keep chugging along
Idk man Hoffa was literally turning America into a mafia state run by the italians

At the end of the day your reason for being upset is just that things arent getting better, which is fine, but they getting worse is precisely the point and philosophy of this timeline

Things have to get worse for the nazis to win, and if the nazis won then the world is fundamentally a worse reality to be in, and and if thats the case then naturally bad things will tend to happen more often because thts just how that reality works

And as Kaiser has said, there are other nazi victory TLs where things get...well I wont say better, but more back to normal, and he made a point wants to go the opposite route of that, but if you dont particularly like that decision these TLs are still there for you ya know?
 
Still on the topic of the assassinations
I really dont see how much they are different from OTL
In both TLs a Kennedy got killed and in both TLs another guy(Long OTL, Hoffa TTL) got killed while the other got to live without issue
And IOTL there's a lot of people who think things would have been better if Long lived and that he should have lived when that is pretty much how we got this world, while here people think things would have been better if Hoffa lived and that he should have lived but, really, things could have gone a lot worse because of him still even if it never got to American Civil War levels and there's no guarantee with how he was screwing things up(harder than the populists in fact) despite his civil rights stance that we wouldnt have gotten a American Civil War anyway
 
Idk man Hoffa was literally turning America into a mafia state run by the italians

At the end of the day your reason for being upset is just that things arent getting better, which is fine, but they getting worse is precisely the point and philosophy of this timeline

Things have to get worse for the nazis to win, and if the nazis won then the world is fundamentally a worse reality to be in, and and if thats the case then naturally bad things will tend to happen more often because thts just how that reality works

And as Kaiser has said, there are other nazi victory TLs where things get...well I wont say better, but more back to normal, and he made a point wants to go the opposite route of that, but if you dont particularly like that decision these TLs are still there for you ya know?
And I understand Kaiser's philosophy and genuinely wish them the best of luck in in their creative plans, and I mean that sincerely. My main issue is the ease with which the "bad" things happen. Like LBJ of all people being outplayed in the Senate? Come on LBJ's entire career is built around reading the Senate like a book? Dude got the 68 Civil Rights Act passed after the pummeling of the 66' midterms and the increasing unpopularity of Civil Rights, even in the North. But he has to fail and get his back broken because it's what "this reality" demands? As an historian, those writing decisions feel cheap.

Again this is not a personal attack on Kaiser and I truly hope they continue to succeed and enjoy working on this world they've made. I just wanted to give my two cents on it.
 
Like LBJ of all people being outplayed in the Senate? Come on LBJ's entire career is built around reading the Senate like a book? Dude got the 68 Civil Rights Act passed after the pummeling of the 66' midterms and the increasing unpopularity of Civil Rights, even in the North. But he has to fail and get his back broken because it's what "this reality" demands? As an historian, those writing decisions feel cheap.
At that Im not gonna disagree with you
I was only talking about the assassinations and I'll admit open and clear here my ignorance of OTL LBJ's character and american politics in general
 
At that Im not gonna disagree with you
I was only talking about the assassinations and I'll admit open and clear here my ignorance of OTL LBJ's character and american politics in general
Appreciate the honesty and I hope you know it's not personal for me, and I'm glad you're enjoying this timeline.
 
Appreciate the honesty and I hope you know it's not personal for me, and I'm glad you're enjoying this timeline.
Thank you! And I wouldnt have minded even if you felt personal about it, you're entitled to your own opinion and feelings on things, and I'm glad to have talked with you here
 
III - ABAJO EL PRESIDENTE
THE IRON EAGLE
FALLEN EAGLE



ABAJO EL PRESIDENTE


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Maxwell's division had moved south from Monterrey as their forces moved southwards, his 36th Division advanced through the coast, shadowed by the Gulf Fleet and with the troops of the Mexican Army to cover the flanks and the Vanguard, although their reliability had left much to be desired. Their destiny was Veracruz, to relieve the city sieged by the Sinarquistas for the last weeks, the Marines seemed to be needing the Army's help once again to get the job done. They were going down from Tampico and arriving near the town of Poza Rica de Hidalgo, little more than a stroll across the Gulf coast with not many engagements, although he knew they were being watched. The Rebel forces were all melting into the countryside, with any luck they would relieve Veracruz and go west to Mexico City, going the route of Winnfield Scott over a century prior, one of the few good paths to reach the heart of Mexico.

He could never shake off the sense that this was far easier than it should be, they shouldn't have gone this far down without resistance, it just felt wrong with all signs pointing to an imminent death. It would not be the first time, he still recalls what happened to the 9th Brigade when they were sent to the west, they never returned from their attempt of reaching Zacatecas. The center of Mexico was a land of hills and mountains that even the native tribes had a hard time settling in the past, and he knew that if he went further south into Veracruz, all he would find would be jungles. But from the informative films Yucatan should not be a problem, a Marine force was being sent to secure Campeche and Merida expecting to be welcomed there. There were tensions between the Sinarquistas, an essentially Integralist organization, with the native tribes that still kept many old religious traditions and who mostly were allied with Communist groups like the Zapatistas.

He was in his mobile Headquarters, could not exactly call it a comfortable place but comfort was not something you should expect on the Army nowadays, in the Israeli War they had shipped in everything, even ice cream machines, but for this little action they were expected to be supplied by the Mexican Government, a government mind you that doesn't even control it's own Capital. The roads were barely kept and everywhere they advanced, they were struck from behind at their supply lines, which is likely what the lookouts watching them from the west were meant to do, waiting for them to pass and signal in a squadron to attack. The navy was more reliable, when they took Tampico, the fleet docked in much needed supplies, ports like those were the lifeline of the army more than the actual roads were.

But as of now, his thoughts were more concerned from the news at home from that fateful letter. Why was Mary doing this to herself? Politics? Running for Congress? In Texas, you either enter as a Populist or you enter as an Independent, she picked Independent, at least for that he could give her some respite. She could win, he knew that, not only did she have a husband in the Army down south, but he knew she was respected back in Houston and could talk anyone into doing anything, including voting for her. He chuckled at that thought, being married to an attorney certainly had it's perks, they both could sustain their family and the government taxes.

But as they stopped in Poza Rica for the night, an explosion could be heard from the headquarters, Maxwell was just going to sleep when it happened and realized quite quickly that he would have to spend the rest of the night with the cleanup. Hardly the first time it happened, in every town they passed there was a lone wolf or a team of brave warriors who wanted to "Die for Christ" by taking out a few soldiers, the poor recruits just had never fought in the Israeli War, or against Japan, or against the Nazis, he had seen it all, fanatics in every battlefield. In a way, Maxwell ended desensitized, but these attacks worried him for the fact that they happened so close to home, that they were made against soldiers who were just boys with no idea of what they were getting into. They probably came down when hearing that Mexico was being taken over by "Nazis" and thought they would be fighting Panzers or soldiers in grey uniforms, not by Sinarquistas.

But this time there was a prisoner, and after his morning coffee, he was reading the report of the interrogation and noticed something different in them. This captive was wearing black, green and red, not the usual Green and white of the Sinarquistas, and the usual ranting was not saying the religious ramble of the captured Sinarquistas, but instead talks about a Revolution and hatred for the "Gringo Imperialista". That gave him pause, he stopped to take back his briefing prior to the invasion, this uniform belonged to the Ejército Zapatista de Resistencia, the Zapatist Resistance Army, shouldn't these Reds hate the Sinarquists as much as they hated the PRI, if not more? What is worse is that, there were some suspicions around, that some of the bombers were not suicidal in previous attacks and were wearing similar uniforms.

Did these people hate them so much that Communists and Fascists were uniting against them?



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Traditionally, the United States entered in Mexico on the 8th of March of 1968, some historians would however claim that the US Armed Forces were present in the country since December, when President Ordaz was forced to flee from Mexico City by a joint force of protesters and members of the Mexican Armed Forces which laid siege to the Capital since the Christmas massacre of 1967. The conflict had many different names depending on the phase, this initial phase being named in Mexico as the "Second Revolution", where a broad coalition of forces, led mostly by the right-wing Sinarquista movement, but also including left-wing groups and insurgents, rebelled against the corrupt establishment of the PRI (Partido Revolucionário Institucional), which had ruled the country for roughly 4 decades with a system once named "The Perfect Dictatorship" (Dictadura Perfecta). The Second phase, following Ordaz' retreat to Monterrey and the arrival of the US Armed Forces was named in America as "The Southern Intervention" or "Second Mexican Intervention" (the first one being the intervention in the Mexican Revolution during the Wilson Administration) and in Mexico it was named as "The Second Mexican-American War" or more commonly as "Guerra de Resistencia" (War of Resistance).

The two distinct phases of the war also diverge in how it was fought, being at first essentially a civil war between the government and the rebellious groups in the Western, Central and Southern parts of the country, then turning into a hybrid war that mixed guerrillas and open confrontation. It was also an odd war from an Ideological point of view, as the conflict united Integralists, Fascists, Socialists/Communists and even pro-democratic forces against a powerful big tent party that was born from a Revolution and now faced one against them. As a result, there was a broad coalition of International supporters for both sides. Obviously, the PRI would enjoy the backing of the United States, but to a lesser extent the Coalition of Nations would also cooperate with American forces to support a friendly and "predictable" regime to keep the status quo in Mexico. On the other hand, the Coalition enjoyed the support of Brazil and the Platine Pact (for the Sinarquistas), the People's Republic of China (for the Zapatistas), to an extent it also would receive the support of the Japanese Empire (although with a limited support in resources, the IJA offered "advisors" during the conflict) and, surprisingly, even from the Pakt (which had an interest in keeping the United States bogged down into a war at home with the fragile situation at home). The Pakt's support is many times overplayed due to the propaganda in the United States that the Mexican rebels were backed by Germania in order to justify the intervention. There is also the fact that both Pope Francis and Pope Eugene called for support for the "New Cristeros" during the war, a decisive factor in mobilizing the Mexican population.

Finally, and most crucially, the Mexican rebels had the support from Guatemala and Cuba, two neighboring nations which sympathized with the idea of a "Latin Resistance" against "American Imperialism", which was a message drummed up by the Brazilian regime as part of the Integralist idea of Latin American cooperation. The support from Guatemala was vital for the funneling of armaments and other resources to the regions of Chiapas and Yucatán, much to the wrath of Washington, similarly, Cuban vessels were used to breach the American blockade to smuggle weapons under a supposedly "Neutral" flag, which also explains why the US armed forces placed a great emphasis in securing the control of the Gulf Coast and especially, as it would soon prove to be disastrous, in securing the jungle-dense region of Yucatán.

At home, the American support for the PRI was seen negatively, leading to long-term problems in the support for the War. Before the intervention, the Christmas Massacre by the PRI in Mexico City had been engraved in the public memory due to the "accidental" coverage given by the Press, with many correspondents being in the city at the time to cover the celebrations, filming as the crowd formed into a protest mob and then as the protest turned to massacre as the government forces fired at the crowd with live ammunition, which was quite reminiscing of how things were at home in places such as Chattanooga. It is no surprise that movements like the Black Panthers did support the Coalition and there was much opposition in the American Left, especially the Progressive Left of the Populist Party and in the Republican Party, against the intervention, although for a time many would buy the image of "Nazi Mexicans" made by the government.

It certainly did not help the Mexican Resistance that their leading movement, the UNS (Unión Nacional Sinarquista) did support the Axis powers during the Second World War, including the infamous assassination of President Manuel Camacho in 1944, the so-called "Presidente Caballero" (Gentleman President). Although the Union did distance itself from Nazism during the war under Abascal's leadership, leading to a condemnation of Nazism in 1956 following the attacks on the Catholic Church and their declaration as an "Integralist" movement that same year, that did not stop their opponents, neither did it hide that many in their ranks still openly supported the Pakt.

The glaring incompetence of the PRI following Camacho's assassination over the next 23 years was staggering, the country not only returned to pursue Anticlerical policies after Camacho's rule (when great strides were made for reconciliation) and an aggressive Secularization which alienated the countryside and fermented the growth of an once declining organization, but their corruption by itself was enough to turn most of the population against them. President Valdés, the first leader to not be a Revolutionary commander, was known for the open cronyism of the government and the return of many foreign companies which were nationalized during the government of men like Cárdenas, especially American companies which would start to come in droves during the 50s. Long's policies in Washington led to many corporations to head down into Mexico, making agreements with the corrupt leadership of the PRI that led to an economic boom in the country at the cost of an exorbitant wealth concentration unseen since the days of the Porfiriato.


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Gustávo Diaz Ordaz would have been just another in that sequence of corrupt leaders in Mexico if not for the fact he also was ruthlessly authoritarian, behaving more like a dictator than any Mexican President since the Maximato. Ordaz, son of a political officer of the Diaz regime, constantly had to defend his and his family's commitment to the PRI's ideals, doing so by ensuring that the party line and the works of his predecessors was not undermined by the rising resistance movements in the country. Furthermore, he also drifted the PRI to further embrace Washington, breaching through the initial isolationist and anti-business stance of the Populist Administration under Smith to facilitate new agreements between the two governments, in hopes that, by further linking his country to the American economy, he would stave off popular unrest through economic results. Perhaps the greatest sign of American involvement in Mexico was that Luis Echeverría, a man who closely cooperated with the CIA and encouraged Ordaz' authoritarianism, just so happened to be his Minister of the Interior.

That policy would backfire terribly as, between 1964 and 1967, the growing Mexican economy had stagnated alongside the American, the inflation of the dollar beginning to affect the country's economic reserves and, what is worse, the living conditions were only becoming more unbearable as the once stable Peso faced it's own inflationary crisis. When Ordaz defaulted on the National Debt in 1967, the crisis would worsen considerably as a flight of Capital began in the country, once considered a safe heaven for investments in a hostile world. Unemployment and inflation would both increase jointly and the already unpopular PRI became the target of the popular anger that year in a way unseen since the Cristero War.

The Revolutionary Party held a strong anticlerical belief which reached it's peak during the Calles era, nicknamed as Maximato, not only limiting itself to separating Church and State, but also in pushing a strong agenda to fully eliminate religious influences from the public office. While in the United States, the dollar would receive the words "In God we trust", the Ordaz government was closing down several churches under the suspicion of harboring sympathizers and preaching support for the Integralist cause. Camacho's attempts of reconciliation would die with his assassination in the hands of the Catholic-alligned Sinarquistas, in fact his death would serve to galvanize the anticlerical elements of the PRI, kept contained since the end of the Maximato, to "correct" the direction of the Party in regards to the formerly reconciliatory tone of the "Gentleman President".


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The Sinarquists had become sidelined as a political force between the government crackdown in 1944 and it's resurgence in the late 1950s, with many moderates moving to legal groups such as the Democratic Movement, the Hardliners under Salvador Abascal would have secured their hold on power within the party and, when the crisis hit the nation in the 60s, emboldened by events such as the Integralist takeover of Brazil, the instability in the United States and the Pope's flight to Latin America, it was the hardliners who reaped the profits. It is estimated that the UNS had between one and two million members by 1966, further increasing in 1967 following the death of Pope Stephen and the rise of the Integralist Pope Francis. To the Sinarquists, as well as to many other groups in the Mexican right, their struggle against the PRI was a sacred fight, inspired mainly by the Cristero War against Plutarco Calles decades prior, some of the movement were even veterans of said war. The Anticlerical policies of the PRI, which earned the government an excommunication in 1967, galvanized the population, mainly in rural areas, against what they saw as an Atheistic Government in a time where the world seemed on the edge of an Apocalypse.

The Left wing of the country would also come to oppose the previously revolutionary government, mainly through the Zapatista movement in regions such as Chiapas, Yucatan and Southern Mexico in General. The Zapatistas, already a powerful force in the Revolution, had long been either suppressed or absorbed into the government, but the growing corruption and cronyism, as well as the authoritarianism of the PRI in general and Ordaz in specific, made the movement ressurge under the umbrella of the "Forza de Liberación Nacional", the National Liberation Force, which was already fighting a de facto insurgency during much of the 1960s against the Mexican government in Chiapas. The difficult terrain and the support of the indigenous population to the Zapatist cause would prevent Ordaz from crushing the insurgency.

Mao Zedong took a particular interest in the Zapatists, to him they represented perfectly his idea of a "People's War", of a Socialist rural guerrilla slowly making it's way to conquer the countryside from the cities, and it also represented the possibility of a Socialist government just south of the American border. It comes as no surprise that, like the Shinning Path in Peru, the Zapatistas would receive support from the People's Republic across the Pacific, with bases in Taiwan being used to send smuggling vessels to the Mexican Pacific Coast or Guatemala, where the Zapatistas had a safe base to withdrawal in the jungles of the North where the Mayan people inhabited.


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Finally, there were democratic forces in Mexico, mainly within the dominant PRI itself. Due to the rigged voting system, the opposition led by the National Action Party, a Conservative Catholic Party with links to the Sinarquist movement around this time, never stood a real chance of gathering power against the PRI. But within the PRI, Ortaz created his greatest threat in the figure of Carlos Madrazo, former Governor of Tabasco and President of the PRI, appointed so by Gustavo himself. Madrazo, known as the "Young Tribune", was born in a Ranch in 1915, rising through the ranks of the PRI within his State until he became governor and then, with Ortaz' blessing, became President of the Party itself. He was charismatic and loyal to the principles of the PRI, but Ortaz underestimated the reformist desires of Madrazo.

A man who appealed to the youth in Mexico, especially in the Urban areas where Liberalism was at the forefront of the opposition to the PRI, Madrazo was set on a platform for changes within the PRI that he made public following his rise as Party leader. Madrazo intended to reform the PRI within with Intra-Party democracy, opening up the primaries in local elections, creating a "Honor Commission" to investigate and audit public corruption within the Party itself and in the States, as well as retiring several members of the corrupt Old Guard in favor of younger and more liberal-minded politicians. As Madrazo began his intended reforms, he quickly would alienate the old guard around the President and, after only two years in charge, he would be forced to resign from his office in 1966.

But that was not the end for Madrazo, who quickly became a Public Enemy of the government. As a former alumni of the Universidad Autonoma in Mexico City, he would be invited to a speech in November of 1966 where he publicly reiterated his proposed reforms and defended them much to the adulation of the student body, mostly composed of similar-minded liberals. He would later hold a rally in his former State, calling for further reforms in Mexican Politics and denouncing the corruption of several high ranking officials of the government. Madrazo would claim he intended to run for President in 1970 with the support of the liberal wing of the PRI, threatening a party rift, and in October of 1967, he would be arrested on supposed corruption charges. This sparked an uproar of protests across the nation called "Días de Octubre", with Ortez at first giving in to the protester's demands and releasing Madrazo from prison.

That would be only the beginning, because the "Days of October" would result in an explosion of long-repressed popular rebellion unseen in Mexico since the fall of Porfirio Diaz. In an ironic twist, the Party of the Revolution would fall due to the same reason the revolution started in 1910: The imprisonment of a popular reformist against a corrupt establishment to try to stop him from running against the ruling party.



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1967 was a year of change in Mexico, in May, the rise of a new and openly Integralist Pope would energize the religious opposition against Gustavo Díaz Ordaz, to the South, the guerrilla war against the government in Chiapas and Yucatan saw a growing level of activity as thousands flocked to the Zapatist flag during the economic crisis, and in October, the Urban democrats would also begin to rally around a sense of rebellion following Madrazo's arrest. These three central movements of the right, left and center respectively, would all converge into a perfect storm against the PRI's almost 4-decades long rule, marked with growing corruption, cronyism, economic stagnation, growing inflation and anticlerical policies.

The events between October and the Christmas Massacre would see these three movements setting aside their differences as the PRI began to lose it's control over the situation and several armed units began to question their own support for a regime loathed by it's people. President Ordaz was encouraged to resist the protesters after his ill-fated decision to order Madrazo's imprisonment on the 1st of October, mainly by Echeverría who assured him that the situation could be controlled and at most there would be "some students shouting while skipping class" and all they would need to do was to "send them back to college". Furthermore, the Trade Unions, who traditionally were allied to the government to an extent, began to turn on the PRI in the years prior over their economic policies, although at this time Ordaz still believed he could count on the support from the Unions and the Military alike.

After Madrazo's arrest was discovered by the press, the story would be leaked and the Public rallied in favor of Madrazo's release, first the students and then other societal sectors who used the opportunity to express their rejection of the PRI's rule, half a million people would flood the streets of Mexico City and soon the protests would also reach other regions as Sinarquistas also began to rally in the countryside at large numbers, including armed militias which would protect rallies. In the State of Guanajuato, north of the capital and one of the main strongholds of the Sinarquist movement, Abascal held a rally calling the Mexican people to oppose the "Antichristian government of greed and pride", receiving a public blessing from Pope Francis in one of the Pope's declaration and, indeed, even Pope Eugene in Rome would publicly express support for the opposition against the Anticlerical policies of the Mexican State.

Madrazo would be released from jail on the 29th of October after the popular pressure forced the hand of Ordaz' government, with the opposition leader being received with open arms by the people, it is said that if he had told so, half a million Mexicans would have stormed the Palace of Los Pinos that night and overthrown Ordaz. But, despite his loyalty to the PRI being broken, Madrazo would not do so and instead he thanked the people and claimed this gathering was an example of how popular strength could overthrow the will of tyrants. What followed was "La Reacción", the reaction.

Ordaz would quickly regret ever releasing Madrazo, having only strengthened his adversary, he instructed Echeverría and the Direccion Federal de Seguridad (Federal Security Division) to imprison several leading figures of the Mexico City protests during the October Days, which made sure the situation was not able to settle down. In some States, armed conflict had already started as the Zapatistas used the popular revolt for mass recruitment and launched several attacks that even reached Madrazo's home State of Tabasco. Sinarquistas in the North and west of the country would engage against local police forces to resist arrests, with Abascal being almost caught on the 19th of November. The failure in imprisoning Abascal and Madrazo would result in one of the most famous alliances of Mexican history being formed in the town of Las Cruces near Acapulco, in the State of Guerrero.



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Few in Mexico even knew he was in there, to them, Ernesto "Chê" Guevara was a distant socialist folklore, a man who was causing a headache by himself against the Argentine Junta or one who was able to ambush and kill four Brazilian soldiers in Acre while he was fleeing from the police in Bolivia. The Zapatistas had a few public figures to cover for him, but from the moment he stepped into the country back in 1965, he was the one calling the shots and commanding thousands of fighters across Chiapas, Tabasco, Guerrero, Yucatan and Guatemala. It took only a few months for the Zapatistas to accept him and soon the other groups like the "Party of the Poor" would be rallying under his command while he hid in his base deep in the Guatemalan Forest, his friends in Guatemala City helping to make sure he would be hidden and the Chinese weapons and medicine arrived into the safehouses. Him and the Zapatistas had made a formidable logistical system running from Northern Guatemala into Mexico that used paths known by the Indigenous peoples for centuries, a people who was fully behind the Zapatista cause.

Now he waited at the back of a bar for a secret meeting with a cigar, and as his fellow minded comrades arrived, first Madrazo and then Abascal, he let out a chuckle with a puff of his cigar, his mind seeing the situation as a joke.

"A Revolutionary, a Fascist and a Liberal walk into a bar."

Unfortunately, his peers did not share his sense of humor, but fortunately he had enough for both of them tonight. The meeting was arranged by him in a "neutral" territory, the look of apprehension they were trying to hide was entertaining to watch. Imagine if Madrazo was killed, the whole country would be up in arms and he could sweep in, and if Abascal was killed then the Sinarquistas would not have a leader to command them. Fortunately for them, Chê knew how much of a headache this treachery would cost him, he would be alone against the full might of the Ordaz regime.

"So, shall we start?"



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The fall of Mexico City was a dramatic incident in Latin American History, the historic meeting on the 5th of December between Ernesto Guevara, Salvador Abascal and Carlos Madrazo in the State of Guerrero would lead to the declaration of the "Plan Las Cruces" on the 6th of December, traditionally considered the official start of the Civil War. The joint declaration made by the three formed the "United Liberation Front" (Frente Popular de Liberación), openly denouncing the Institutional Revolutionary Party's rule of Mexico, listing several crimes of the Ordaz and previous administrations and calling upon the Mexican people to rebel openly against the Mexican State. The reveal that the Socialists were led by none other than Guevara was a shock even for the government, although there were suspicions of it fed by the CIA, it gave a certain "mystique" to the Zapatista forces, especially among the youth.

Soon enough, what were once spontaneous, turned to coordinated uprisings across the nation from Baja to Yucatan, Zapatista guerrillas began striking the main towns and cities in the south, often times not facing more than a token resistance. The Governor of Chiapas, José Castillo, have his plane shot down as he attempted to flee Tuxtula to Mexico City on the 14th, being the first high ranking government official killed in the war. Soon, most of the Pacific coast would be taken with Sinarquistas laying siege to the city of Guadalajara, one of the main cities in Mexico, on the 18th. The Situation soon would go out of control as the communications between the Government in Mexico City and the majority of the States in the West and south of the country was cut off.

The tension increased in the Capital as President Ordaz would call for a National Mobilization against both "Reactionary and Communist" insurgents, claiming that the conquests of the Mexican revolution were threatened. The National mobilization plan was put under effect and conscripts were called while the Military police would shut down the Capital, which has been wrecked by protests for the last two months. When rumors spread that the Revolutionaries would arrive at the city by Christmas spread amongst the people, nobody knows where this rumor started as the closest revolutionary units to the city, the Sinarquists coming in from the North, were still attempting to break the defensive perimeter made by the Loyalist Army. But this began a protest during the Christmas eve as a priest was detained for suspected treason (he was the brother of a Sinarquist leader and compared Herod's massacre of children with Ordez in an indirect way), the mass broke into a protest as the mob charged after the military police to attempt to free the priest, leading to the first shots being fired. Believing that the city was under attack, the Military governor of Mexico City, General José Hernández Toledo, ordered the invasion of the University, believing that the building was taken over by Socialists among the students. Furthermore, a Curfew was placed on the streets with protests at the Plaza de la República being ordered to disperse, shots would come from the crowd while Revolutionary cells in the city, which had infiltrated it in the previous weeks, were activated to fire at the military. But once Toledo gave the order for the soldiers to fire live ammunition at the crowd, the units disobeyed that command.

Ordaz would quickly be evacuated from the city as the soldiers began to join the crowd, the loyalist forces and the President's guard would defend Los Pinos while a helicopter took Ordaz to the East, to Veracruz, after that he would head North to the City of Monterrey. As the City fell, the mayor would be arrested and the army units still fighting in the outskirts began to melt, either escaping to the northeast to rally with loyalists or even defecting to the revolutionaries. The Three leaders would arrive at the city and declare a provisional government, with Madrazo being declared as Interimn President in a mostly ceremonial position, declaring the PRI illegal while formalizing the Revolutionary Alliance of the FPL as the provisional government of Mexico. However, the failure to capture or kill President Ordaz and much of his cabinet would come to haunt the Revolutionaries as the President fled North and began to consolidate his control over the Northern Territories, centering his Administration in the State of Monterrey, declaring Martial Law and preparing a meeting with the American Ambassador, who also fled to the North.


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On the 8th of March, the first divisions of the US Army, mobilized since December for this task, would cross the border, intending on securing the Northern regions of Mexico from the insurgents, especially in Sonora and Baja, meanwhile, the Gulf Fleet would accompany the 36th Infantry south to secure the coast and the port of Veracruz. A force of Marines had already secured the city in January against an assault of the Revolutionary Army, with the USAF launching strikes from air bases in Texas and Arizona against concentrations of Revolutionary Forces. President Smith, claiming that Mexico was falling into the grip of Nazism, approved an Intervention through Congress with a surprising amount of Bipartisan support, his popularity even received a recovery in that Month's poll, which helped secure him as the Populist Candidate in July, it was a political as well as an strategic move, allowing Mexico to fall under either Integralism or Communism was a cost far too high to America's own security to allow.

The intervention was sold to the American people as being a relatively short and easy affair similar to the intervention in Israel, but the entry of American troops would be a crippling blow to Ordaz' authority even in the ranks of the PRI, which usually had a more Independentist and Neutral mindset about the global affairs and with some veterans, including Ordaz' own Minister of Defense, General Marcelino Barragán, still remembering the American occupation of Veracruz during the Revolution, the parallels between Ordaz and Victoriano Huerta were inevitable. The Revolutionaries did expect a level of interference from the United States, but President Madrazo had hoped to strike a deal with Washington, but his association with Abascal and Guevara would condemn him in the eyes of the CIA despite his good intentions in fostering a relationship with the US. He would make an interview with New York Times correspondent Richard Lowe in January, claiming the revolution was a democratic movement, but his best efforts were not enough to dissociate his image with his rivals.

The American Forces in Mexico would be placed under the command of General Earle Wheeler (not to be confused with former President Burton Wheeler), an experienced commander who held command in the expeditionary force in Russia during the Ural War, although he did not see conflict in the Israeli War. Wheeler's strategy, as it came to be known, was centered around securing the Gulf coast and the main urban centers, driving west and south to secure the Pacific Coast and the interior. The Revolutionaries did not offer a strong resistance against the enemy's push to Mexico City, rather, Guevara believed that the city should be abandoned and, after regular army units offered a token resistance in Tlaxcala, the Revolutionaries and their supporters would evacuate the capital, leaving it an open city for the US Army.

On the 21st of April of 1968, the US Army entered Mexico City, with the 36th Division entering the city as the Vanguard together with units of Ordaz' Loyalists, only too late would Washington realize that Mexico City was a poisoned chalice. President Ordaz was restored and the US army was left with the task to pacify a nation of 50 million people with one of the most diverse and hostile terrains in the world right across their border. Mexico City was perhaps the best example of the kind of war that the Military would face in the Intervention: On face value, leaving Mexico City was a foolish mistake by the Revolutionaries which gave Ordaz a sense of legitimacy and authority with the Capital in hands, but around the Capital was the countryside, a land of mountains, hills, ridges, forests and dense vegetation where thousands of guerrilla fighters could remain hidden and keep a secret siege, ensuring that the city as a whole was a death trap, a beautiful centuries-old symbol of the country, laying in the jaws of a creature which could be shut at any second. Keeping Mexico City at the long term with the hostility of the majority of the country was simply unteneable, unfortunately Ordaz was far too proud to realize that, and so were the Americans at the start of what would prove to be one of the nation's most devastating conflicts, not only directly, but indirectly.
 
This is my biggest problem with this timeline so far. Anytime there's a chance for something to get better, even marginally, a MacGuffin gets thrown in to keep the timeline as dark as possible. Kennedy seems like a popular candidate that can finally unseat the populists, Nazi mistress. Hoffa is trying to rally the American left, gets whacked by the mob. Israel pulls off a miraculous win against the Syrians and Arabs, Nazis take half the country anyway. Nazis are almost drawn into a full blown civil war that ends with a nuclear bomb going off outside Berlin, totally fine with business as usual because it's time to crush the Russians again. Northern liberals being totally okay with the death of civil rights?!

Like come on man something has to give at some point or something actually has to change. Or is this entire timeline "Nazis always win despite everything going against them, the rest of the world loves Nazism and integralism, and America has to keep falling into darkness"? Like I understand the desire to not have a rinse and repeat of most Nazi win cold war stories, nor am I expecting some epic wholesome comeback. But it seems like there is a need to just throw in MacGuffins to subvert expectations and keep things grimdark. It feels like the first time I watched Seasons 7 and 8 of Game of Thrones.

That said I do enjoy this timeline and the writing quality is excellent, but I fear it's not going anywhere.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it almost seems worse because so many other characters survive the same things that happen to others. MLK gets shot, dead. Huey Long gets shot, needs a cane but he's fine. So fine that he even comes out of retirement
Okay, first, Hoffa rallying the American Left is hardly a good thing, even if he succeeded we are talking about a corrupt Unionist who stole millions, if not billions from the funds of working men all across the country to fund criminal projects of the Italian Mafia. If he won the arm wrestling competition with Long and did not get shot, this would not make for a better world at all. Civil Rights are Important, but in this case the victory of Hoffa would mean America becoming something akin to much of Latin America or Italy itself. The better outcome would be Hoffa still dying but Smith losing the election, at least in my opinion. I admit the Kennedy part was more just because I want to avoid the Cold War trope that America somehow must always get a Kennedy in the White House.

Israel had a miraculous defense, but their whole existence in this world is an uphill battle, if anything if I were to be realistic, Hitler would have invaded them with the Syrians and the Arab League back in 1947. The fact they still exist and most of the Jews in the north managed to survive and move south shows that I don't intend to make something fully Grimdark.

About the Nazis right now, Germany is not doing well at all, in fact they are "out of the game" and will be so for almost a decade, they will be facing problems of their own in Europe. They almost lost the war against Russia due to the Volkssturm picking up a fight with the Wehrmacht and losing the Caucasus over that, the only reason they could recover most of it is because they can have the resources of the whole Continental Europe and most of the Middle East in their favor, as well as the Russians themselves already having fought a bloody war with them some 6 years earlier that killed millions of them. Plus the fact both sides just tossed over nukes to force breaches in the defenses, but it is important to remark that those are more "David Crockett"-like nukes, at most a Nagasaki level.

The thing about Germany is that right now they lost most of their "Ostarbeiter" population, the millions of slavic slaves that they used to build up their Empire either were killed by them due to their genocidal insanity or managed to escape into Russia (which is still the winner of this war, they conquered many important cities along the Volga, crippled Germany for a generation and rescued some 15 million people who now mostly live in Russia). Not only that, but the Angriff was a disaster in the psychological, material and cultural sense to all of Europe. Just because I did not write some extensive analysis of Germany after these events (yet), does not mean they are just "business as usual" and will face their own next challenge in Europe.

Northern Liberals did not just accept a death of Civil Rights? Other than the repeal of the act (which is more akin to our world's 1957 act rather than the 1964 one), most of the decisions made by Smith were executive and not targeting Civil Rights organizations in an open way, think of COINTELPRO rather than him just passing "Lynching quota bills" through Congress, this was something that could hardly be stopped as they do not have a majority to impeach Smith (Before it is asked, the Democratic Party has essentially become a "Dixiecrat" Party, the Northern Democrats joined with the Republicans in the 50s). If Northern Liberals would just "accept" that, there would probably not be a "Second American Civil War" tag in this story.

About the Grimdark part, there is a difference between this being an overall worse and more somber world and being a grimdark world. In a realistic sense, this is a world where modern law theories are discredited if only for the reason that the birthplace of most of them and the main propagators of those (European nations) are led by a regime which in our world openly showed irreverence to such laws and a complete sense of arbitrary callousness (I cannot recall a single treaty which Hitler did not break when convenient to him, Munich and Molotov-Ribbentrop are just scratching the surface). These are the guys who won and set the example that might makes right to become the norm in the world as it has been in Human history since before Westphalia (arguably even after it until the Congress of Vienna), it is simply yet another understanding that becomes the standard instead of the one we are used to.

You want to see some shinning spots? There is India, which is far stronger and avoided the millions of deaths and conflicts of the Partition. There is Russia, which managed to recover from it's collapse and now are a relatively powerful nation that has just saved millions from slavery and genocide. There is the Free French Empire, which yes is still a Colonial nation, but it is set on reforming it's path and pose a challenge to a tyrannical order across the Sahara. There is the Congo, which is avoiding a civil war which killed millions in our world for the sake of a more stable compromise. There is Cuba being a relatively stable nation which managed to enact a proper land reform policy and avoided both Baptista and the Castros. There is the whole of Indochina avoiding the Vietnam war and the absolutely gruesome regime known as Khmer Rouge. There is Britain which, despite their own flaws and the anxious situation they are, remain a bold and daring challenger to Nazism. There is Israel, whose whole existence means that Hitler did not fully win and, despite it's beatings, it is still able to survive against all odds even against powerful enemies. And China, despite still being led by Mao, had their policies being changed due to the influences it received and more than halved the amount of people who died in the Great Leap Forwards.

Meanwhile, Nazi Germany spent the last decade making sure they cannot be a threat to the world for a long time, the Angriff in Europe set millions of otherwise apathetic people to be their enemies, especially in Catholic Nations, the Ostrkieg and the Nazi-Israeli War showed everyone that the Wehrmacht can be beaten in Battle, and of course there are the own internal politics in Germany where their Social Darwinism makes their politicians cannibalize one another.

You focus a lot on Long and some other surviving while "good people" in general are killed with random attacks, but have you noticed how many "bad people" also died in somewhat random ways? There is not a single member of the original Inner Circle of Hitler who had a peaceful death, instead they mostly fell victims of the system they made. Göring, the guy who in our world ordered the Wannsee Conference done and led the Luftwaffe while it bombed cities, dies randomly with a supposed partisan attack. Hess goes completely insane and kills himself. Heydrich just so happened to conveniently be driving in an open car. Italo Balbo just happened to have his plane crash when he was about to become Duce (no, he would not have been an improvement over Mussolini or Almirante). And of course, there is Hitler himself who just happened to catch a cold and went into such a hypocondriac panic that he overdosed on pills and had a heart attack.

And Japan? Even if they are remilitarized, they do not have the resources to be a threat like they used to be.

Just because the United States has been dealing with loss, it does not mean the whole rest of the world is suffering with them. Even if overall this is a more volatile world than our own, with wars and deaths happening in a scale more similar to what Humanity was like before the 19th century, it does not mean everywhere is worse and it certainly does not mean this is Grimdark. Even if the United States fell right now in the story (1968), Germany would not dominate the Earth.

And I understand Kaiser's philosophy and genuinely wish them the best of luck in in their creative plans, and I mean that sincerely. My main issue is the ease with which the "bad" things happen. Like LBJ of all people being outplayed in the Senate? Come on LBJ's entire career is built around reading the Senate like a book? Dude got the 68 Civil Rights Act passed after the pummeling of the 66' midterms and the increasing unpopularity of Civil Rights, even in the North. But he has to fail and get his back broken because it's what "this reality" demands? As an historian, those writing decisions feel cheap.

Again this is not a personal attack on Kaiser and I truly hope they continue to succeed and enjoy working on this world they've made. I just wanted to give my two cents on it.
The part about LBJ, he was very important in passing bills for the Populists in the 50s, there is a reason he got the nickname of "Shark".

Now, there is a whole lot of difference between our world and this for LBJ, the Populists are something new, a party fully made by Huey Long where opportunists and those with similar vision to him jumped in for sake of power. In our world, LBJ had the respectable and established Democratic Party (which did have a Majority early in his government), a Martyr popular POTUS to capitalize on, and of course the Presidency, the most important aspect. Here he has neither of these and instead a whole Political Machine that was once made to support politicians like him instead is working against him.

This world was made different of our own from the moment FDR died, it is very well possible that Johnson had different experiences growing up, he rose to power differently and instead of allying early on with people like Russell, he allied with Long. And lets not sell Long cheaply here, the man was able to take over Louisiana from the local machine within two years, and in this world he would have been in the Senate since the 30s with all the experience that entails. Plus the whole party was built around him while he was President, this is more similar to the Justicialist Party in Argentina or the Brazilian Labor Party under Vargas, it was never possible for LBJ to turn Long's Party against him (especially since Long, as Party President, controls the campaign funds), the more Goldwaterite-wing of the Republicans would back a repeal of the Civil Rights and so would the Democrats, doesn't seem far fetched that a President, with all the money and intimidation in that office, would be able to push for a repeal.

The important thing to think about is that there is a greater level of amorality and corruption in American politics, or at least it is more obvious in this world. It is more cynical, perhaps that is my own experience of being closely related to a Politician (won't disclose here), but what matters most for your average politician is to get money for campaign funds, especially in a time before the Internet. Long spent his Presidency bringing down the Hammer on the most powerful lobbying companies in the world, did he do that just because he despised corporations? Not just that, he did it because, alongside with his "War Chest" scheme, it allows him to hold an essential monopoly on campaign funds for the Party to elect his loyalists and sideline his opposition (this worked wonders in several dictatorships and in big-tent parties as a whole). This is a kind of influence that no amount of "Jumbo" can compensate.

So to recap:

1) LBJ here had different experiences in politics and is not going to be 100% the same LBJ of our world, the Butterfly effect can be a reason for it.
2) In our world, LBJ had all the tools he needed at several times to pass his proposals (Most importantly the Presidency, that overshadows everything else), here he does not.
3) LBJ is playing in someone else's pond, Huey Long has spent over a decade building up an entire system to make sure his Party is loyal to him, similar to how many dictators do.
4) Politics in America is in general more corrupt and Amoral, I mean, there was a mobster as Attorney General here!

And the Civil Rights are not more unpopular in the North, Smith is only attempting to frame the Civil Rights with terrorism (I will avoid entering in current politics but we have seen plenty of cases of Terror being used to justify discrimination) and while that will convince some, this will not suddenly turn the Northerners into Segregationists. What Smith is doing is dividing his opposition by breaking down moderate organizations like the Southern Christian League and the NAACP so that he can disorganize the movement, the FBI did do similar things in our world with COINTELPRO itself, here it is just applied more harshly because violence and intimidation generally have less of a taboo here.

Now, I am just attempting to explain your concerns, as well as those of many people here. If the lenses are taken out from the US (Kinda hard, I admit, they are the focus of this chapter), you can see that even if the world as a whole is worse off, there are still many places that are not as terrible and are even a little better off in our world. Even if I do intend for this world to be darker than our own, as otherwise it would invalidate the severity of a Nazi victory and it's impact on the psyche of mankind as a whole, it does not mean I am making it Grimdark.
 
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Now, I did say I would include the 1968 election, unfortunately I did face a writer's block now and I could either hold off the Mexican chapter until the American half is finished or publish the Mexican chapter and make the election a chapter of its own, I chose the latter.
 
About the Nazis right now, Germany is not doing well at all, in fact they are "out of the game" and will be so for almost a decade, they will be facing problems of their own in Europe. They almost lost the war against Russia due to the Volkssturm picking up a fight with the Wehrmacht and losing the Caucasus over that, the only reason they could recover most of it is because they can have the resources of the whole Continental Europe and most of the Middle East in their favor, as well as the Russians themselves already having fought a bloody war with them some 6 years earlier that killed millions of them. Plus the fact both sides just tossed over nukes to force breaches in the defenses, but it is important to remark that those are more "David Crockett"-like nukes, at most a Nagasaki level.
I take it that the next few chapters will be delving into troubles the Reich is having vis-a-vis the client states/satellites, as we know relatively little of how the Angriff affected Germany’s satellites.
 
I intend to focus on the US at least until 1969-1970.
What is Che’s ultimate goal here? I heard you mentioned earlier that he hated the Integralists in South America, and he seems to be annoying the Argentina Junta. Is his plan to achieve his revolution by kicking out the Nazis, Americans, and Integralists?
 
What is Che’s ultimate goal here? I heard you mentioned earlier that he hated the Integralists in South America, and he seems to be annoying the Argentina Junta. Is his plan to achieve his revolution by kicking out the Nazis, Americans, and Integralists?
Che, like he was already in our world, is a guerrilla fighter wanting to spread Socialist ideals mixed in with Anti-Americanism across Latin America. He considers the Integralists to be a reactionary force at best and Fascists with a cross at worst and opposes the Brazilian/Integralist influence growing in the region.
 
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