The Good Berry: A Wild Rice Domestication TL
- Thread starter PeterEzgo
- Start date
If you do chariots god things will be interesting. You'd make the need for stronger wapiti a lot more apparent and probably would allow ppl to breed good wapiti to hold larger loads and eventually ppl.
Also I do wanna say a weak animal that is suboptimal to us may not be a bad option to ppl where it is the only option. For example medieval Japanese horses weren't as strong as western breeds but they were still ridden to war bc of how effective they were against peasants. Other than a more robust wapiti breed being developed due to them being put to work in both moving things and pulling stuff I see wapiti breeds being able to be as effective as ponies on carrying humans by the time the Americans meet the Europeans.
You've heard of war elephants, but what about war Moose(meese?)
goats also make pretty good animals of labour, if you breed those large enough they could act like small cows, though the goats of the Americas are really a type of antelope, still, I would like to see war wolves, moose(meese?), goats, and wapiti)
Sincerely
The Telugu Khan
From The Telugu Khan
To the Great God @PeterEzgo
goats also make pretty good animals of labour, if you breed those large enough they could act like small cows, though the goats of the Americas are really a type of antelope, still, I would like to see war wolves, moose(meese?), goats, and wapiti)
Sincerely
The Telugu Khan
From The Telugu Khan
To the Great God @PeterEzgo
Um... Thanks, I guess?
Scientists have attempted to domesticate moose. It hasn't worked.
I don't know if they can act like small cows or oxen, but they will be used for labor eventually.
Dogs have long been used in warfare. I don't think goats will be. Wapiti will definitely be.
I took inspiration from the Freemasons, the Anglos rite calls god the great architect of the universe(yes I know technically you do not need to believe in the Abrahamic god in Freemasonry), you are the architect of this universe thus a god
they could help with siege engines
my superficial research has found that the soviets had domesticated them(though as livestock) in the '60s, and in Sweden, they have been used to draw sleighs since the 1700s, and funnily enough, the soviets may have used a few in the Winterwar to some capacity. Finally the icing on the cake, a man had tamed a moose and used it just like a horse
ok. I guess.
Sure
There is a difference between taming an individual animal and domesticating a group of animals. Taming is just individual animals getting used to human contact and maybe even being trained. Domestication is breeding animals so that they are always friendly to humans and emphasizing some other aspect humans like (ex: fatter animals for slaughter, milk production for milking, etc.)
The soviets attempted domestication but mostly failed (they got them to hang around a barn but couldn't get them to do much else with any kind of consistency). The other stuff is just individual tame animals used as pets by people.
A travios is useful on winding forest trails east of the Mississippi, but on the Great Plains the wheel is a natural invention, just as it was on the Asiatic steppes OTL.
I mean if ppl put a lot more time to domesticate moose I think it could work, especially if they domesticated reindeer first which seem (?) to have somewhat similar but not the same problems as moose and not having a lot of options. But I don't think it works in this tl bc ppl already have wapiti. If anything I think bison makes more sense as people spread into the plains and start managing bison intensively. It is a lot more likely that bison would be semi-domesticated due to the time frame though. Same with pronghorn. Pronghorn could be managed by putting fences on the routes they normally travel through, which means herding and culling them would be even easier than bison, which would be harder to control in general. But I think much like horses a domesticate that originates from nomads is plausible.
One thing I'd like to see is a verminator being domesticated. A ferrt/mink, bobcat, fox or owl domesticate to kill mice and rats would probably help with preventing food stocks being eaten through bc dogs don't really hunt for them all the time whereas these animals would be hunting for them all the time. I personally would like mink, but a plethora of animals would work as verminators. Hell you could have multiple species be domesticated much like how we have ferrets and cats.
But I am very hyped for the goat domestication. It probably means that people in the edges (the rockies) are moving into a nomadic lifestyle, and all the problems and opportunities from this new lifestyle would cause change in South America. It'd prob connect the Great Lakes region to the Louisiana river basin and its native civilisations, and to Mesoamerica and the Andes. Hell, I could see the Andes emulate llama riding due to its effectiveness in war.
Speaking of (admittedly unrelated) domesticated animals I definitely think elands and the ratites would be great domesticates. I read a tl where eland domestication causes changes in Africa, and it was fun asf to read.
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Ah that is very true. I can defo see it being developed in the plains where the drawbacks of wheels are minimised and the technology can have its time to mature before being taken back to the more settled areas.
Chapter 40: The Land of Bede and Wool
Chapter 40: The Land of Bede and Wool
The Rosary River [Snake River] is so named because of a misconception. Some of the inhabitants of the valley, the Newe [Shoshone] people called the river the Yampapaa, after the yampa plant. The French assumed the plant they were speaking of was bede [Apios Americana]. The French call bede “rosary root” due to its appearance resembling beads on a string and christened the valley Vallée du Rosaire. The English later took the name from the French. [1] This gave rise to the myth that bede was first domesticated in the Rosary River Valley, something that was later proven false.
In fact, the yampa plant is more closely related to (and tastes quite a bit like) carrots. It was used similarly to the Eurasian carrot by many native groups in the valley. The Rosary River Valley is where yampa was first domesticated, though it later spread to the east. Camas was domesticated further west, but we will discuss that later.
Today, there is a great deal of controversy over land ownership and the various competing ethnic claims within the Rosary River Valley. The Siksikaawa [Blackfoot] and Anishinaabe , both Algonquian speaking peoples, claim the Rosary River Valley as the homeland of the proto-Algonquian peoples. The Newe speak an Uto language [Uto-Aztecan language] [3] which is more closely associated with the lands to the south. They also claim the valley as their homeland.
We will not wade into this controversy beyond saying that the proto-Algonquian people likely originated from this area but it is unlikely they were still there when the ancestors of the Newe arrived. The Newe then lived in the area, more or less undisturbed, for millennia.
The ancestors of the Siksikaawa arrived in the Rosary River Valley in the first half of the first millennium AD, carrying domesticated manoomin and bede from the east. Even today the Siksikaawa are more common in the northern and eastern parts of Rosary River Valley while the Newe are more common in the southern and western parts. However, there are large areas of overlap on both sides. Some Siksikaawa people can be found in the furthest western and southern areas while some Newe people can be found in the furthest eastern and northern parts of the valley.
The Siksikaawa did not use rice bogs [paddies] to grow manoomin as their counterparts further east did. The Rosary River Valley is too dry and it is prone to form canyons that make irrigation canals impossible. Instead the Siksikaawa used the natural lakes and shallow river areas to grow manoomin not just for grain but also as bait to attract ducks and other migrating birds. They would introduce manoomin to these areas and then allow it to grow naturally. They would return each fall to harvest the rice and hunt the migratory birds.
Using only natural formed beds to grow rice limited the size of harvests that could be brought in and therefore the population they could support. However, permanent sedentary villages were able to form in places where ricing camps and salmon runs happened in close proximity.
Once sedentism became common, manoomin only represented a tiny fraction of the food eaten. The Rosary River Valley also proved both too dry and too cold for consistent maize harvests and the plant was never a major part of their diet. Instead, the inhabitants of the valley used sunflowers, kiinwaa [domesticated goosefoot], amaranth, and of course bede. Later on, domesticated turkeys, ducks, geese, and other animals were imported from the east and added to the farms of the Rosary River Valley. Domesticated animals were often kept in the same houses that people lived in, especially during the winter. Their houses were generally made from sod due to how rare and expensive wood was in the valley.
While the Siksikaawa were the ones to bring agriculture to the region, the Newe soon picked up the practice as well. Although both peoples adopted agriculture before trans-Cascadian populations, they never developed true cities or large kingdoms.
The Newe and Siksikaawa lived in the same types of houses, used the same sorts of tools, and grew the same sorts of foods. It can be quite difficult to distinguish a Siksikaawa settlement from a Newe settlement in the archeological record. The Newe pierced their noses while the Siksikaawa generally did not. Sometimes the remains of a Newe burial will be found with nose piercing intact but this is rare.
The only reliable way to distinguish the settlements of the two people is writing. Like the Cree, the Siksikaawa used a simplified form of Mowin syllabics for writing while the Newe were illiterate. If writing is found in a settlement, it is assumed to have been a Siksikaawa settlement and if no writing is found then it could be either a Siksikaawa settlement or a Newe settlement (as the writing just might not have survived).
From remnants of this writing we can tell the Siksikaawa called the Newe the kineepikoyiniwak, which translates as snake people, much like how the Anishinaabe called the Ongweh’onweh [Iroquois] snakes. [4] The Hand Talk sign for the Newe also mimics the movement of a snake.
While the ancestors of the Siksikaawa brought manoomin and bede to the Rosary River Valley, it was probably the ancestors of the Newe who domesticated the Woolly Goat [Rocky Mountain Goat]. The Newe had long gathered the wool of the goat from bushes and dead goats (either dead of natural causes or hunted). With the introduction of agriculture into the area and the increase in trade with the east and west, wool became inceasingly more valuable.
Like the Anishinaabe to the east, the Newe and Siksikaawa used both flax and wool dogs to make cloth. They also hunted animals in order to make leather. Bison were used for leather and wool when they were hunted. Without horses bison hunting was inconsistent and inadequate. None of these methods could keep up with the demand for clothing.
Instead, the Newe sought more and more to control the Woolly Goat. They selectively culled herds for favorable traits, slowly domesticating the goat. Over the course of many generations, Woolly Goats slowly became friendlier to humans. Their wool grew even longer and their milk production was increased. Their pregnancies grew shorter and sexual maturity came at a younger age. Eventually, the goats were so docile, they could be sheered without killing them.
Many Newe communities came to depend primarily on the products of Woolly Goats. Their meat, wool, and milk were all used. The Newe became the first Occidental [North and South America] culture to use milk outside of emergency situations. They fermented the milk of Woolly Goats in order to avoid the unpleasant side effects of lactose intolerance. This drink, called biza, was derided by the Siksikaawa as foul tasting.
As the goats were bred to handle non-alpine conditions better, more and more non-Newe communities began raising them. As domesticated Woolly Goats spread out from their natural habitats, wool dogs were used less and less. Woolly Goats ate grass rather than fish and did not need to kept away from house dogs to stop them from inter-breeding. This made them cheaper to feed and look after. In fact, some dogs could be bred to help herd the Woolly Goats, which made keeping them even easier.
The Rosary River Valley was a vital trade bridge between the peoples of the east and the west. The people of Rosary River Valley had long traded jade, obsidian, gold, silver, and salt to both the Salish and the Shawnee. As the Woolly Goat became more domesticated, they also traded wool blankets, wool clothing, the goats themselves, and even milk products such as cheese and biza. Soon the Shawnee would be raising Woolly Goats of their own.
Next week we will have a break. In two weeks, we will discuss the Shawnee conquest of the Ohiyo River Valley.
[1[ By the way, this is how so many places in OTL United States and Canada get their names. A misconception or mistranslation of a native word, sometimes from a group that didn’t even live in that area.
[2] Taken from a screenshot 20 seconds into this video:
[3] No Aztecs so it’s not called Uto-Aztecan.
[4] This is where the name for the Snake River comes from, by the way.
[5] Taken from: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe.../1024px-Mountain_Goat,_Enchantments_Basin.jpg
Comments? Questions?
They've been around for a while but they are definitely increasing right now.
They probably won't disappear entirely but they are going to be greatly reduced in number.
I wonder how having a readily available animal source of meat, skins, wool and milk might make this culture more competitive, by having a better nutrition, better clothing and a pack animal. And will zoonoses occur? If so then it might make the users less susceptible to mass death from European diseases.
Thanks!
Maybe.
This is definitely a Read and Find Out (RAFO) question.
No update this week.
I did update the Vocabulary list here so that all non-English words or ATL phrases up to Chapter 40 are included.
The schedule for the next section looks something like this:
Chapter 41: The Infinite Empire (expansion of the Shawnee Empire into the Ohiyo Valley) 5/11/24
Chapter 42: To Use Your Left Hand (scripts and changes to writing in the Shawnee Empire) 5/18/24
Supplemental: Shawnee Script (details of the Shawnee Script) 5/25/24
Chapter 43: The Defeat of the Demon Kings (Shawnee conquest of the Mishigami) 6/1/24
Chapter 44: The Land of Rain and Fish (the Pacific Northwest) 6/8/24
Chapter 45: The Long Peace (extended period of peace in the Shawnee Empire) 6/15/24
See you guys next week!
I did update the Vocabulary list here so that all non-English words or ATL phrases up to Chapter 40 are included.
The schedule for the next section looks something like this:
Chapter 41: The Infinite Empire (expansion of the Shawnee Empire into the Ohiyo Valley) 5/11/24
Chapter 42: To Use Your Left Hand (scripts and changes to writing in the Shawnee Empire) 5/18/24
Supplemental: Shawnee Script (details of the Shawnee Script) 5/25/24
Chapter 43: The Defeat of the Demon Kings (Shawnee conquest of the Mishigami) 6/1/24
Chapter 44: The Land of Rain and Fish (the Pacific Northwest) 6/8/24
Chapter 45: The Long Peace (extended period of peace in the Shawnee Empire) 6/15/24
See you guys next week!