Ramontxo
Donor
An retrospective chapter would be payed with a lot of beer if you ever came to Donostia San Sebastián (if you are local it is Donosti)
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
The truth being stranger than fiction, Panzers from 2 Panzer Divison engaged destroyers evacuating Boulogne in May 1940. Due to one if the Destroyers catching fire, the Panzer crews claimed they had sunk the ship. This claim was later proved to be false. But of course they didn't have HV75's 😉.
Although, I suspect that Allan knows the story, and hence the tounge in cheek response from him relating to the Channel Dash.
I suspect it's possibly a reference to a scene in the thread "The Fireflies Of Port Stanley".
HMS Venomous shot up some tanks while withdrawing the British Garrison - it was a captured fort over looking the harbour that shot up HMS Venetia causing her to catch fire with Venomous destroying the fort and silencing the guns in two salvos of 4.7"
The next night a remarkable feat was achieved by another V class Vimiera who managed to 'Sneak in' and evacuate a staggering 1400 men to Dover - not bad for a 1,300 ton WW1 Destroyer!
Probably, although those were post war ships without any armour.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
There is ITTL and IOTL, a fundamental difference between the war fought, by the two global powers America and Britain, and that fought by all the others. The Anglo Americans fought a rich man’s war, while the rest fought a poor man’s war. Just as during the Napoleonic era, when it was said that the British were spending gold Guineas to break French windows. So too during WWII, did the Anglo Americans spend a King’s Ransom to defeat their opponents, as unlike the other powers involved, they collectively had a King’s Ransom, and were prepared to spend it. Even during the worst times for the Anglo Americans, such as for the British the time after the fall of France, or for them both in the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Philippines and Singapore. They knew that it was only going to be a matter of time before they had dealt with their present problems, and they could then go on the offensive. They by they I mean those in charge and the higher administration of the respective nations, Britain and America, knew by mid 1942, that they were going to win the war, even though they might suffer a number of setbacks along the way, it was just a matter of time.
So let us look at the advantages that the Anglo American alliance enjoyed over there allies and the axis, right from the opening of the conflict. Both Britain and America enjoyed access to virtually the entire world other than the nations of the Axis, from there entry into the war, whereas the Axis nations along with the Soviet Union and the Chinese, were very restricted in their access. There was no way that the Germans could build an equivalent of the De Havilland Mosquito, as they didn’t have access to the Balsa wood from South America, that the British did. German jet engine development was hampered by their lack of access to the vital metals needed to alloy the steels used in the turbine blades. While the British and American forces only used animals in the transport role in very restricted circumstances, and then only as pack animals. Whereas the Germans were using oxen to tow their jet aircraft about by the end of the war. By July of 1944, the Anglo Americans could in a 24 hour period, launch thousands of aircraft, from 4 engine bombers all the way down to single engine artillery spotters, with all the fuel requirements involved, including those of the trucks to transport their fuel and ammunition. In just one theatre of war Northern Europe. This doesn’t include the forces in the Atlantic sea and air, or those in the Mediterranean, Far East and Pacific, combined used more fuel in a day, than the Axis powers combined had available in a month.
The Anglo Americans had by transferring merchant ship production to American shipyards, freed up British yards to produce escort vessels, and were essentially building merchant ships faster than the Germans could sink them. While the increase in escorts and more air cover, from land and escort carriers, meant that by mid 1943, the overwhelming majority of convoys sailed across the Atlantic without losing a single ship. And in most cases managing to sink one or more of the U-Boats sent against them. Those same shipyards in America and Britain, also produced the massive number of landing ships and boats that were needed in the Pacific, Mediterranean and Channel, plus the carriers, cruisers and destroyers required by the United States Navy to prosecute their ongoing operations in the Pacific. I would expect that ITTL given the lower losses incurred by the British and their greater success in 1940/41, the combined forces of the Anglo American alliance should be able to launch an invasion of Sicily in late 1942, followed by an invasion of the Italian mainland in early 1943. While in the Pacific/Far East region, the Japanese are finding that their inability to capture Malaya and Singapore has seriously affected their plans. They now face a maritime war on multiple fronts, against the two most powerful navies in the world, who are beginning to recover from their initial positions. The Americans from their disastrous losses at Pearl Harbour, and the British from being restricted by their commitments in the Mediterranean and Atlantic. Both nations are now able thanks to the much improved proformance of the British between 1939 and now, to divert naval forces away from regions such as the Mediterranean and Atlantic, that they weren’t able to IOTL.
With less requirements for the deployment of major capital units in the Atlantic and Mediterranean, both the British and Americans can deploy more of their capital ships to respectively Singapore and Pearl. Yes the Japanese can to a great extent sever the direct shipping route between the USA and Australia. However the cost of doing so would be incredibly high. And the Anglo Americans provided the Anglo Dutch retain control over Malaysia and Sumatra, can take the long way around via the Cape, and the Great Australian Blight. Or once it’s open to through traffic, which is going to be soon, the Mediterranean, Suez and the Indian Ocean. The principal problem for the Japanese is that they have only a limited number of options, whereas the rich men the Anglo Americans have multiple options to choose from. If the Germans at the hight of their power can not prevent the Anglo Americans from running Artic convoys to the Soviet Union, the Japanese have little to no chance of preventing them from running convoys to Australia. Yes it would be expensive to do so, but given just how little other than military supplies the Australians required, as they were more than able to feed the population, and other than oil, had all the fuel resources required to power their economy. And given how expensive it was to run convoys to the Soviet Union, which wasn’t a member of the British Empire, I seriously doubt that the British are going to object to the cost of supplying Australia, when they had even before the entry of America into the war. Incurred a tremendous cost in supplying Malta, when it was under a far more effective siege, than the Japanese could enact on Australia.
The Japanese just like the Germans had a very narrow window of opportunity to win the war, and that tiny window is now firmly closed. Especially as ITTL, they haven’t been able to cut off the Chinese from the western powers, as the Burma Road is still open, and the Anglo Americans are shortly going to establish an air bridge from Burma to China. The British despite their initial losses at the strategic level, have managed to claw back and improve their position. They have replaced France as the major European land power, to absorb the might of the German army, with the Soviet Union. And unlike in WWI, America is not just a co-belligerent, but is an ally that is helping to pay for the conflict, at minimum cost to Britain. So with the Soviet Union absorbing the majority of the German military efforts, and the British blockade of Germany highly successful, and the better proformance of the British army to date. The situation in the Mediterranean becoming day by day more advantageous, and the failure of the Japanese in the Far East to capture Burma, Malaya or Singapore. Britain and the British Empire is not under the strain it was IOTL, and will shortly be in a position to really start to take the fight to the enemy. It doesn’t matter what plans the Japanese have, they would be extremely lucky to succeed in any of them, and stand a very good chance of them becoming a complete and costly failure.
RR.
So let us look at the advantages that the Anglo American alliance enjoyed over there allies and the axis, right from the opening of the conflict. Both Britain and America enjoyed access to virtually the entire world other than the nations of the Axis, from there entry into the war, whereas the Axis nations along with the Soviet Union and the Chinese, were very restricted in their access. There was no way that the Germans could build an equivalent of the De Havilland Mosquito, as they didn’t have access to the Balsa wood from South America, that the British did. German jet engine development was hampered by their lack of access to the vital metals needed to alloy the steels used in the turbine blades. While the British and American forces only used animals in the transport role in very restricted circumstances, and then only as pack animals. Whereas the Germans were using oxen to tow their jet aircraft about by the end of the war. By July of 1944, the Anglo Americans could in a 24 hour period, launch thousands of aircraft, from 4 engine bombers all the way down to single engine artillery spotters, with all the fuel requirements involved, including those of the trucks to transport their fuel and ammunition. In just one theatre of war Northern Europe. This doesn’t include the forces in the Atlantic sea and air, or those in the Mediterranean, Far East and Pacific, combined used more fuel in a day, than the Axis powers combined had available in a month.
The Anglo Americans had by transferring merchant ship production to American shipyards, freed up British yards to produce escort vessels, and were essentially building merchant ships faster than the Germans could sink them. While the increase in escorts and more air cover, from land and escort carriers, meant that by mid 1943, the overwhelming majority of convoys sailed across the Atlantic without losing a single ship. And in most cases managing to sink one or more of the U-Boats sent against them. Those same shipyards in America and Britain, also produced the massive number of landing ships and boats that were needed in the Pacific, Mediterranean and Channel, plus the carriers, cruisers and destroyers required by the United States Navy to prosecute their ongoing operations in the Pacific. I would expect that ITTL given the lower losses incurred by the British and their greater success in 1940/41, the combined forces of the Anglo American alliance should be able to launch an invasion of Sicily in late 1942, followed by an invasion of the Italian mainland in early 1943. While in the Pacific/Far East region, the Japanese are finding that their inability to capture Malaya and Singapore has seriously affected their plans. They now face a maritime war on multiple fronts, against the two most powerful navies in the world, who are beginning to recover from their initial positions. The Americans from their disastrous losses at Pearl Harbour, and the British from being restricted by their commitments in the Mediterranean and Atlantic. Both nations are now able thanks to the much improved proformance of the British between 1939 and now, to divert naval forces away from regions such as the Mediterranean and Atlantic, that they weren’t able to IOTL.
With less requirements for the deployment of major capital units in the Atlantic and Mediterranean, both the British and Americans can deploy more of their capital ships to respectively Singapore and Pearl. Yes the Japanese can to a great extent sever the direct shipping route between the USA and Australia. However the cost of doing so would be incredibly high. And the Anglo Americans provided the Anglo Dutch retain control over Malaysia and Sumatra, can take the long way around via the Cape, and the Great Australian Blight. Or once it’s open to through traffic, which is going to be soon, the Mediterranean, Suez and the Indian Ocean. The principal problem for the Japanese is that they have only a limited number of options, whereas the rich men the Anglo Americans have multiple options to choose from. If the Germans at the hight of their power can not prevent the Anglo Americans from running Artic convoys to the Soviet Union, the Japanese have little to no chance of preventing them from running convoys to Australia. Yes it would be expensive to do so, but given just how little other than military supplies the Australians required, as they were more than able to feed the population, and other than oil, had all the fuel resources required to power their economy. And given how expensive it was to run convoys to the Soviet Union, which wasn’t a member of the British Empire, I seriously doubt that the British are going to object to the cost of supplying Australia, when they had even before the entry of America into the war. Incurred a tremendous cost in supplying Malta, when it was under a far more effective siege, than the Japanese could enact on Australia.
The Japanese just like the Germans had a very narrow window of opportunity to win the war, and that tiny window is now firmly closed. Especially as ITTL, they haven’t been able to cut off the Chinese from the western powers, as the Burma Road is still open, and the Anglo Americans are shortly going to establish an air bridge from Burma to China. The British despite their initial losses at the strategic level, have managed to claw back and improve their position. They have replaced France as the major European land power, to absorb the might of the German army, with the Soviet Union. And unlike in WWI, America is not just a co-belligerent, but is an ally that is helping to pay for the conflict, at minimum cost to Britain. So with the Soviet Union absorbing the majority of the German military efforts, and the British blockade of Germany highly successful, and the better proformance of the British army to date. The situation in the Mediterranean becoming day by day more advantageous, and the failure of the Japanese in the Far East to capture Burma, Malaya or Singapore. Britain and the British Empire is not under the strain it was IOTL, and will shortly be in a position to really start to take the fight to the enemy. It doesn’t matter what plans the Japanese have, they would be extremely lucky to succeed in any of them, and stand a very good chance of them becoming a complete and costly failure.
RR.
Or the can dog-leg south through New Zealand, at much less additional cost.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Which only goes to show just how strategically dumb the Japanese were, in that they couldn’t work out the numerous options available to the Anglo Americans. And how they lacked the ability to close them all off, and that even with Singapore, Sumatra, Java, and Papua in their hands, the Anglo Americans had other options available. The sheer amount of options available to the Anglo Americans, and the depth of their economies was never taken into consideration by any of the axis powers.
RR.
As Marshal Trivulzio wrote to Louis XII of France in 1499, ‘To carry out war three things are necessary: money, money and yet more money.’
Similarly Raimondo Montecuccoli, one of history's rare cases of going from Private soldier to Field Marshal, said in his 1704 memoir "What wonder that a certain person, being asked what were the things necessary for war, should reply that there were three, to wit, money, money and money."
(Despite common misconception it apparently wasn't something said by Niccolò Machiavelli, it just sounds like something he would say. The closest he came was commenting on that even if you have the money you still have to beat the man who doesn't. He observed in his "Art of War" that the side with the most does not always win. If so Darius would have beaten Alexander.)
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Well Fascism has never been known for promoting the smartest. That said, in Japan's case keep in mind there were still millions of Japanese alive at the outbreak of war (including some senior decision makers) who had been born under the Shogunate when All contact with outsiders was limited.Their priority was control of Japan. In reality the powerbrokers of 1940 were still dominated by the Satsuma and Choshin clan - the victors of the Boshin war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boshin_War) - and yes if you're watching the excellent new Shogun - the guys who lost in the 17th Century - but kept their bitterness for 300 years - from the West of Japan.. Their clans had led the Korean invasion in the 1500s and been blessed by the Americans in invading Korea in the 20th century and by the British too. I've never seen anything that connects it but it has always seemed convenient that their 2 centres of power - Hiroshima and Nagasaki were so hard hit.
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15 June 1942. Salisbury Plain, England.
New
allanpcameron
Donor
15 June 1942. Salisbury Plain, England.
The Baron II’s trials were complete and a group of Officers, Other Ranks and civilians were having a cup of tea while trying to work out what needed to go in to the report. There was an unusually informal aura at the meeting, particularly in view that the one pouring the tea was a Major-General.
Major-General Percy Hobart had been doing wonders with the various ideas for developing a selection of vehicles to overcome the kinds of obstacles that might prevent tanks from doing their jobs. He had recently flown back from North Africa where he’d had a look at his old 7th Armoured Division’s experience. Obviously, the battlefield in the desert was always going to be different from Europe. The particular difficulty that had been shown up was dealing with minefields, and that would be the case in any theatre of war.
One of the other officers drinking tea was the South African born Captain Abraham du Toit. He had been working with AEC to develop his idea of clearing mines by using a flail. Before leaving the Middle East, he had begun working on the idea and, when recalled to England, his idea had been taken over by Captain Norman Barrie of the RAOC. With the help of the Royal Engineers, and a team from his own Regiment, Barrie had taken over the local Middle East Command’s attempt to put together a version, which they called a ‘Thresher’. Hobart and du Toit had gone to see what their progress had been, and compare it with their own progress.
The main problem was that the car engines driving the Threshers had struggled to cope with the vibrations caused when a mine exploded. The fact that Barrie’s engines were mounted on the side of the Matilda and Valiant tanks, with the operator’s position also in the vulnerable side mounting, didn’t look as if there was much room for improvement. The threshers were having to be mollycoddled as much as possible. du Toit’s AEC Baron I (based on a Matilda II hull) had basically the same problem as Barrie’s thresher, the car engine’s power to rotate the drum which swung the chains wasn’t powerful enough.
In some ways the Baron II was a better machine than the Middle East’s Thresher. A Bedford six cylinder engine had replaced the original Chrysler, the arms holding the drum were now powered by hydraulic rams rather than working off the turret’s traverse system. The thing that the Thresher was better at was hitting the ground at a flatter angle, and so the Baron II had repositioned the arms lower. There were still problems over rough ground, where mines in furrows could be missed. Having some kind of contouring device was something that would have to be looked at.
Both versions of the flail struggled because of the weight at the front of the tank. The heavy chains and drum on the long arms projecting from the front of the hull meant that counter weights had to be added to the back of the tank. The Matilda, already underpowered, struggled to cope with the extra weight. The Valiant versions had a bit more power to play with, and coped a bit better. Getting the flail right was the first thing, then the best tank or tanks to fit it too would be next.
The fact that the team could sit around having a cup of tea and each person, from Major-General to private to civilian, were able to speak and be taken seriously was one of Hobart’s principles that made his work progress so well. Everyone was encouraged to put forward bright ideas, from whole systems to improvements to existing ones. This was paying dividends time and again.
The Baron II’s trials were complete and a group of Officers, Other Ranks and civilians were having a cup of tea while trying to work out what needed to go in to the report. There was an unusually informal aura at the meeting, particularly in view that the one pouring the tea was a Major-General.
Major-General Percy Hobart had been doing wonders with the various ideas for developing a selection of vehicles to overcome the kinds of obstacles that might prevent tanks from doing their jobs. He had recently flown back from North Africa where he’d had a look at his old 7th Armoured Division’s experience. Obviously, the battlefield in the desert was always going to be different from Europe. The particular difficulty that had been shown up was dealing with minefields, and that would be the case in any theatre of war.
One of the other officers drinking tea was the South African born Captain Abraham du Toit. He had been working with AEC to develop his idea of clearing mines by using a flail. Before leaving the Middle East, he had begun working on the idea and, when recalled to England, his idea had been taken over by Captain Norman Barrie of the RAOC. With the help of the Royal Engineers, and a team from his own Regiment, Barrie had taken over the local Middle East Command’s attempt to put together a version, which they called a ‘Thresher’. Hobart and du Toit had gone to see what their progress had been, and compare it with their own progress.
The main problem was that the car engines driving the Threshers had struggled to cope with the vibrations caused when a mine exploded. The fact that Barrie’s engines were mounted on the side of the Matilda and Valiant tanks, with the operator’s position also in the vulnerable side mounting, didn’t look as if there was much room for improvement. The threshers were having to be mollycoddled as much as possible. du Toit’s AEC Baron I (based on a Matilda II hull) had basically the same problem as Barrie’s thresher, the car engine’s power to rotate the drum which swung the chains wasn’t powerful enough.
In some ways the Baron II was a better machine than the Middle East’s Thresher. A Bedford six cylinder engine had replaced the original Chrysler, the arms holding the drum were now powered by hydraulic rams rather than working off the turret’s traverse system. The thing that the Thresher was better at was hitting the ground at a flatter angle, and so the Baron II had repositioned the arms lower. There were still problems over rough ground, where mines in furrows could be missed. Having some kind of contouring device was something that would have to be looked at.
Both versions of the flail struggled because of the weight at the front of the tank. The heavy chains and drum on the long arms projecting from the front of the hull meant that counter weights had to be added to the back of the tank. The Matilda, already underpowered, struggled to cope with the extra weight. The Valiant versions had a bit more power to play with, and coped a bit better. Getting the flail right was the first thing, then the best tank or tanks to fit it too would be next.
The fact that the team could sit around having a cup of tea and each person, from Major-General to private to civilian, were able to speak and be taken seriously was one of Hobart’s principles that made his work progress so well. Everyone was encouraged to put forward bright ideas, from whole systems to improvements to existing ones. This was paying dividends time and again.
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