A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

pdf27

No - he's still interned in Sherbrook. Not because he's a German but because they're worried about his association with the Communist Party. A combination of the war going much better and Stalin more obviously supporting Hitler means that they keep him interned. He'll be free to go back to Germany at the end of the war, and probably end up in some university physics department.
 

naraht

pdf27 said:
For capital ships they're a little bit ahead of OTL - essentially the later KGVs and some of the carriers aren't delayed by the exigencies of the Battle of the Atlantic. Indeed, the better situation means that they also don't order the light fleet carriers and instead continue with Lion and Temeraire plus lay down Audacious and Irresistible to the original design. They're only part built at this point though.


License fee was signed for cavity magnetrons (at $5/unit) and there is some sort of deal on learning from the RAF operational experience of control systems and French knowledge of shaped charges. It was a bit of a damp squib for the rest of the Tizard mission, with nuclear stuff in particular not being of interest.

**de Gaulle** as a neutral figure? The mind boggles.


Why would you care about parity with the US when you're worried about having to fight the Japanese? Sure the Admiralty will want parity with the US but an Attlee government (something almost impossible to avoid post-WW2 no matter how well the British do) won't be interested.


By this stage it's pretty clear that the US isn't a threat to the UK or Empire/Dominions. That's something they can reconsider if the political mood music in Washington changes, but that's unlikely in the near future.
The very top guys at the Admiralty will be aware of nuclear weapons coming down the road as well - they'll one-shot-kill any conceivable battleship, at which point armour starts looking quite questionable and carriers become the gold standard. In OTL this happened fairly quickly in OTL, with existing gun ships only hanging around to escort carriers and handle missions in weather too bad for aircraft to fly.
With the focus being on the Pacific in the near future, the "bad weather" case isn't a major concern - the existing gun ships can handle it. And they've got a lot of modern carriers - 9 of them, with Ark Royal being the oldest. That's actually a more capable carrier fleet than the Japanese have.



For the RN, the Soviets aren't yet a big deal - they've got small submarine fleets and horrific natural chokepoints to deal with. Realistically until they get nuclear boats they aren't a threat to the major trade routes. For Finland, Sweden, Turkey, etc. things are very different however.
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So what's being built has changed (less emergency changes, and access to the world trade), but in terms of what's actually in the water, not much...
In terms of de Gaulle, that's not a no. :)

The RN knows who the next enemy is and it is *highly* unlikely to be the Americans. They know the Democrats currently in power seem friendly enough and I'm not sure quite where a strand of virulent Anglophobia is going to come from (background Anglophobia won't be hard to find though)

The FS Union will probably want to keep parity with the Soviet Baltic Fleet, the question is whether they can. I do expect the Danish opinions on Soviet Naval Vessels to be similar to OTL though.

I'm not sure the Turks need parity (depends on relations with Greece/Italy as to whether the Navy has to look South as well.
And the Soviet Pacific Fleet is *probably* a bystander in the next war, so no idea where it goes.
 
JudgeKing

JudgeKing

Regarding the French naval construction, here's what the French Navy had under construction on September 1st, 1939 as well as what they planned to build prior to the Fall of France.
Joffre-class Aircraft Carrier (1)
*MN Joffre

Richelieu-class Battleship (3)
*MN Richelieu
*MN Jean Bart
*MN Clemenceau

De Grasse-class Light Cruiser (1)
*MN De Grasse

Le Hardi-class Destroyer (12)
*MN Le Hardi
*MN Fleuret
*MN Épée
*MN Mameluk
*MN Casque
*MN Lansquenet
*MN Le Flibustier
*MN Le Corsaire
*MN L'Intrépide
*MN Le Téméraire
*MN L'Opiniâtre
*MN L'Aventurier

Le Fier-class Topedo Boat (5)
*MN Le Fier
*MN L'Agile
*MN L'Entreprenant
*MN Le Farouche
*MN L'Alsacien

Aurore-class Submarine (11)
*MN Aurore
*MN La Créole
*MN La Bayadère
*MN La Favorite
*MN L`Africaine
*MN L`Astrée
*MN L`Andromède
*MN L`Antigone
*MN L`Andromaque
*MN L`Artémise
*MN L`Armide

Roland Morillot-class Submarine (3)
*MN Roland Morillot
*MN La Praya
*MN La Martinique

Emeraude-class Minelaying Submarine (2)
*MN Emeraude
*MN L`Agate

Sans Souci-class Seaplane Tender (4)
*MN Sans Souci
*MN Sans Pareil
*MN Sans Peur
*MN San Reproche

Élan-class Minesweeping Sloop (13)
*MN Élan
*MN Commandant Bory
*MN Commandant Delage
*MN Commandant Duboc
*MN Commandant Rivière
*MN La Capricieuse
*MN La Moquese
*MN La Rieuse
*MN L'Impétueuse
*MN La Curieuse
*MN La Batailleuse
*MN La Boudeuse
*MN La Gracieuse

Chamois-class Aviso (5)
*MN Gazelle
*MN Surprise
*MN Annamite
*MN Admiral Sénès
*MN Enseigne Ballande

Bougainville-class Aviso (2)
*MN Beautemps-Beaupré
*MN La Pérouse

Joffre-class Aircraft Carrier (1)
*MN Painleve

RIchelieu-class Battleship (1)
*MN Gascogne

Alsace-class Battleship (2)
*MN Alsace
*MN Normandie/Flandre/Bourgogne

De Grasse-class Light Cruiser (2)
*MN Châteaurenault
*MN Guichen

Saint Louis-class Heavy Cruiser (6)
*MN Saint-Louis
*MN Henri IV
*MN Charlemagne
*MN Brennus
*MN Charles Martel
*MN Vercingetorix

Improved Mogador-class Large Destroyer (4)
*MN Kléber
*MN Desaix
*MN Hoche
*MN Marceau

La Fier-class Torpedo Boat (9)
*MN Le Corse
*MN Le Breton
*MN Le Tunisien
*MN Le Normand
*MN Le Parisien
*MN Le Provençal
*MN Le Saintongeais
*MN Le Niçois
*MN Le Savoyard

Aurore-class Submarine (1)
*MN Hermione
*MN Gorgone
*MN Clorinde
*MN Cornélie

Roland Morillot-class Submarine (5)
*MN La Guadeloupe
*MN La Réunion

Emeraude-class Minelaying Submarine (2)
*MN Corail
*MN Escarboucle

Phénix-class Submarine (13)
*MN Phénix
*MN Vendémiaire
*MN Brumaire
*MN Frimaire
*MN Nivôse
*MN Pluviôse
*MN Ventôse
*MN Germinal
*MN Floréal
*MN Prairial
*MN Messidor
*MN Thermidor
*MN Fructidor

Chamois-class Aviso (18)
*MN Amiral Sénès
*MN Matelot Leblanc
*MN Rageot de la Touche
*MN Ambitieuse
*MN Victorieuse
*MN Alfred de Courcy
*MN Amiral Duperré
*MN Amiral Gourdon
*MN Preneuse
*MN Enseigne Bisson
*MN Furieuse
*MN Généreuse
*MN Heureuse
*MN Joyeuse
*MN Malicieuse
*MN Rieuse
*MN Sérieuse
*MN Trompeuse

France also had 22 Flower-class corvettes at various stages of construction when it surrendered in OTL. Sixteen were being built in British yards and six in French yards.
 

naraht

Starfox5 said:
Without the Winter War, the FS Union also has a port in the Arctic.
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Prior to WWII, I'm not sure Finland ever used it as a Naval Port. Trying to have Liinakhamari match Murmansk and Archangel would be a pretty big lift. (Probably a necessary one though. )
Comparisons that jump out to me are the Hel Peninsula for the Polish Navy between the wars and maybe Eilat for Israel.
 

JWilly48519

JudgeKing said:
Regarding the French naval construction, here's what the French Navy had under construction on September 1st, 1939 as well as what they planned to build prior to the Fall of France.
"French naval construction at the start of World War II"
"French ships under construction or planned for construction after September 1st 1939"
Click to expand...

In addition to new construction, OTL France had significant development occurring for existing vessels.

1939 OTL France was no better or worse than Britain and Germany in regard to its senior admirals not yet recognizing what "effective AA" soon would require. Many late-30s French ships still were AA-armed with semiautomatic light cannons...like German destroyers of that same period...and with multi-barrel HMGs, similarly to some British ships of the same period. But, a subset of French naval planners and engineers were actively working on that solution. In particular, the older aviso (patrol sloop) Amiens was equipped starting in OTL 1935 with an evolving prototype AA autocannon system, CAMle 1935 dual 37mm L/70, that by 1939 had reached 170 rpm per gun and featured mechanized-chain-elevator ammo feed and electrical remote aim control from a separated control station with its own 2 meter rangefinder. The prototype was found to be combat effective in its trial-by-fire, during the OTL naval actions off Le Havre in 1940. It seems likely that within 6 to 12 months ITTL, it could have been rolled out to multiple other ships, replacing older inadequate weapons.

France 37 mm/70 (1.46") Model 1935 - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com www.navweaps.com

And, OTL Hotchkiss had long worked on their 25mm autocannon systems with limited sales-success to the Marine Nationale, even though OTL they made a substantial licensing deal in the mid 1930s with the Japanese for the first design-version of the gun (which became the Type 96); had sold guns to the Soviet Union and to Romania; and had sold a few ground-mount versions to the French Army. But, the OTL CAMle1940 gun-version had reached 200 rpm per gun (i.e. 400 rpm from a two-gun mount), and a plan was already under discussion in OTL early 1940 for the brand new Le Hardi destroyer-class to have its semi-automatic 37mms and HMGs replaced as soon as practicable with Hotchkiss CAMle 1940 single and double mounts.

France Hotchkiss 25 mm CAMle 1938/1939/1940J - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com www.navweaps.com

(Edit: Latter paragraph originally said "semi-automatic 25mms", dumb error, no such thing existed. The CAMle 1925 single and CAMle 1933 dual semiautomatic guns definitely were 37mm.

Replacement of 37mm guns with 25mm guns necessarily entailed a diminishment of "effective" AA range, from 5000 meters for the 37mms to 3000 meters for the 25mms...but there was a practical acknowledgement that hitting an attacking aircraft with a semiautomatic 37mm, without proximity fuzing or timed burst and instead using only point-fuzed shells, at 5000 meters was exceedingly unlikely.)
 
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naraht

Thinking about Poland after the war. Let us assume that Poland receives all of the land from Germany that it did iOTL as well as OTL Koenigsburg and that other than what the Soviet Union has, that Poland's other borders are changed to what they were 9/1/1939. I'm presuming this will be what post-war Poland will look like.

Does Poland have all of the lands that Prussia and Austria-Hungary took in the 1700s Polish Partitions?

I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that Poland will not (heavily) desire any lands that it lost prior to the first partition (1771) and if so, does that mean its *only* claims outside of its control are controlled by Stalin.

Still waiting to see if we get a Polish SSR, or just bigger Bylorussian and Ukranian.

Another thought. Post war USSR will have gained the Baltic States, but not Koenigsburg. Does the Baltic Fleet move their main base into someplace like Riga or does it stay in Leningrad.
 
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SealTheRealDeal

SealTheRealDeal

naraht said:
Thinking about Poland after the war. Let us assume that Poland receives all of the land from Germany that it did iOTL as well as OTL Koenigsburg
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So does Poland get Memel or is a rump Lithuania going to be propped up?

and that other than what the Soviet Union has, that Poland's other borders are changed to what they were 9/1/1939.
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Including the Czechoslovak bits?
 

naraht

DracoLazarus said:
Memel is likely in Soviet Lithuania, considering that the Soviets were going to nab it as an attack of opportunity
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I believe that of the options that Stalin had when the Entente drove started this on Christmas was to grab the part of Lithuania that the Nazis had had when the split was made and that was the one that was chosen (much lower risk than driving on Warsaw)
 
DracoLazarus

DracoLazarus

naraht said:
I believe that of the options that Stalin had when the Entente drove started this on Christmas was to grab the part of Lithuania that the Nazis had had when the split was made and that was the one that was chosen (much lower risk than driving on Warsaw)
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Yes. And that is Memel/Klaipeda.
 

naraht

Mayukh said:
Benny Moose tried to intervene but did Uncle Joe try to dogpile upon collapsing reich?
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Uncle Joe essentially finished things up so there would not be a Free Lithuania. That was viewed as not being risky since the Entente had given no guarantees to Lithuania.
 

Mayukh

naraht said:
Uncle Joe essentially finished things up so there would not be a Free Lithuania. That was viewed as not being risky since the Entente had given no guarantees to Lithuania.
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I could'nt for the life of me find out where it was mentioned. Can you please give me the link?
 
Julius Vogel

Julius Vogel

Mayukh said:
I could'nt for the life of me find out where it was mentioned. Can you please give me the link?
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pdf27 said:
6th January 1942
After having been unable to contact Berlin and being advised that the handful of German troops left in the country are no longer able to put up any meaningful resistance, at 4.30am Cécil von Renthe-Fink surrenders all of the German forces in Denmark to the Danish government.

Later in the day, 4th Army send a small number of troops forward in Bedford QL trucks to make contact with the Danish police in Padborg. They arrive without incident in the early evening, having first made contact with a mounted patrol of Danish cavalrymen on the outskirts of Flensburg. No armed or uniformed German troops are encountered during this trip, although as is becoming common a small number of shifty-looking military aged men are observed on occasion.

Meanwhile, 1st Army completes the encirclement of Berlin with I Corps, while II and III Corps are advancing as fast as they can for the Polish border. Thanks to 1st Army currently getting priority for what petrol there is, they make good progress and occupy the high ground overlooking the Oder valley by sunset.

Finally, a trainload of petrol reaches 3rd Army at Halle during the night, which enables the advance to resume at dawn. This enables advanced units to reach Döbeln by the end of the day, leaving them only 60 miles from the Czechoslovak border and more importantly just over 200 miles from the Czechoslovak armies.

In the French sector, the occupation of both Frankfurt and Stuttgart is completed without major incident. Further forward, the French are advancing extremely rapidly, often not even slowing down to reply to small-arms fire from anything smaller than a section. By midnight advanced units have reached Ulm, Nördlingen, Würzburg and Fulda – these are however typically very light forces, often only a few armoured cars with no forces at all on the side-roads. Resistance – already light – has however become almost non-existent, and the local population can clearly see the writing on the wall after broadcasts by Reichs-Rundfunk-Gesellschaft go off the air during the course of the day.

The Soviet occupation of the Klaipėda territory passes largely without incident. There is sharp fighting in the city of Klaipėda itself around the naval base – rapidly overwhelmed by the Soviet armoured forces committed to the attack – but otherwise most of the Soviet casualties come from accidents rather than German opposition. This is particularly true for the brigade-scale airborne drop around Heydekrug, where due to higher than forecast wind speeds over 200 soldiers from the 3rd Airborne Brigade suffer broken bones on landing and 30 are killed.
Deportations start immediately, with all PoWs taken being placed on trucks for Telšiai where they are put on a special train for transport to Aktyubinsk. In accordance with the Serov Instructions, the NKVD also start to inform all known German families that they are to be evacuated in the next few days and may take no more than 100kg of personal belongings with them.
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Here is one.
 
Julius Vogel

Julius Vogel

Another

pdf27 said:
6th January 1942
After having been unable to contact Berlin and being advised that the handful of German troops left in the country are no longer able to put up any meaningful resistance, at 4.30am Cécil von Renthe-Fink surrenders all of the German forces in Denmark to the Danish government.

Later in the day, 4th Army send a small number of troops forward in Bedford QL trucks to make contact with the Danish police in Padborg. They arrive without incident in the early evening, having first made contact with a mounted patrol of Danish cavalrymen on the outskirts of Flensburg. No armed or uniformed German troops are encountered during this trip, although as is becoming common a small number of shifty-looking military aged men are observed on occasion.

Meanwhile, 1st Army completes the encirclement of Berlin with I Corps, while II and III Corps are advancing as fast as they can for the Polish border. Thanks to 1st Army currently getting priority for what petrol there is, they make good progress and occupy the high ground overlooking the Oder valley by sunset.

Finally, a trainload of petrol reaches 3rd Army at Halle during the night, which enables the advance to resume at dawn. This enables advanced units to reach Döbeln by the end of the day, leaving them only 60 miles from the Czechoslovak border and more importantly just over 200 miles from the Czechoslovak armies.

In the French sector, the occupation of both Frankfurt and Stuttgart is completed without major incident. Further forward, the French are advancing extremely rapidly, often not even slowing down to reply to small-arms fire from anything smaller than a section. By midnight advanced units have reached Ulm, Nördlingen, Würzburg and Fulda – these are however typically very light forces, often only a few armoured cars with no forces at all on the side-roads. Resistance – already light – has however become almost non-existent, and the local population can clearly see the writing on the wall after broadcasts by Reichs-Rundfunk-Gesellschaft go off the air during the course of the day.

The Soviet occupation of the Klaipėda territory passes largely without incident. There is sharp fighting in the city of Klaipėda itself around the naval base – rapidly overwhelmed by the Soviet armoured forces committed to the attack – but otherwise most of the Soviet casualties come from accidents rather than German opposition. This is particularly true for the brigade-scale airborne drop around Heydekrug, where due to higher than forecast wind speeds over 200 soldiers from the 3rd Airborne Brigade suffer broken bones on landing and 30 are killed.
Deportations start immediately, with all PoWs taken being placed on trucks for Telšiai where they are put on a special train for transport to Aktyubinsk. In accordance with the Serov Instructions, the NKVD also start to inform all known German families that they are to be evacuated in the next few days and may take no more than 100kg of personal belongings with them.
Click to expand...


The trick is to search on "Klaipėda", as PDF spelt it
 

superstrijder15

I know a few years ago PDF gave some sneak peaks about the UK railway system, I'm wondering how other railway systems are right now compared to OTL. Here are my best guesses for the west-european nations that I feel like I know enough about to have an opinion:

France: Was not occupied for multiple years while being stripped of stuff to send it into the Eastern Front, which I'm guessing helps a lot. The area near the border that has been a frontline for longer time periods may have had quite some damage, but I think overall the damage will be way less than years of occupation and then as much destruction as possible as the Allies were breaking out from Normandy.
Germany: A shorter war, less strategic bombing AND the German army practically collapsed before most of the network was in range of enemy guns? The German network is going to be in way better shape in my eyes.
Belgium: Compared to OTL, I think Belgium is the worst off. It was the frontline for most of the war, instead of the main rail lines being bypassed in 1940, and the Allies jumping from a frontline near the landing areas in France all the way to the Dutch border and to near the German border with little time inbetween. Since it was the front line so much, I expect there to have been a lot more destruction and disruption.
Netherlands: This was the hardest to categorize for me. Like Belgium, it was on the front line a lot. But on the other hand, that line was a sideshow to both sides for quite a while and the fighting was much less active due to the Water Line. In OTL, the Germans removed a bunch of rail, closing some lines and single tracking others, to provide more rail for their war industry, and I imagine that would also not have happened in TTL.

One of the reasons that I started thinking about this, is that I was wondering if the conditions would have changed enough that it could cause more countries to adopt the same electrification standards as PDF implied both France and the UK have TTL, so that hopefully the patchwork of electrification standards would be a bit cleaner TTL. And then maybe the international trains near me won't require special locomotives able to handle 3 different types of electrification.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
At that mid-40s point in history, what European countries were on the same rail gauge? Thinking from the repair and modernization efforts and budgetary expense.
 

superstrijder15

Driftless said:
At that mid-40s point in history, what European countries were on the same rail gauge? Thinking from the repair and modernization efforts and budgetary expense.
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I think all of the areas involved in this war were on the standard gauge? Though they also all had narrow-gauge railways in part of their network or for their tram networks. Spain and Ireland still use a broader gauge, as does Russia. As far as I could find, Germany rebuilt the entire Polish network to standard gauge in WWI, and then the Soviets changed it to broad gauge again by the time of the German invasion. So right now the break of gauge there is probably the border, but with tendrils of broad gauge from the Soviet zone into major cities for transshipment of goods to Germany (OTL this happened in Warsaw).
So I don't think any gauges need to be changed for now. If the Soviets gain or lose territory, that might change.
 

JWilly48519

Driftless said:
At that mid-40s point in history, what European countries were on the same rail gauge? Thinking from the repair and modernization efforts and budgetary expense.
Click to expand...
I don't have specific rail system historical knowledge, but we do know from other sources of certain relevant logistics-facts.

The British supply base and logistics hub on the Continent from the first establishment in France of the BEF was at Arras. Prior to the German attack on Denmark, bulk supplies to Arras were moved via the British rail network to either Harwich or Dover. Railcar ferries ran between Harwich and both Dunkirk and Calais, and between Dover and Dunkirk. British-locomotived and -crewed trains ran on shared French trackage from Dunkirk and Calais to Arras.

After the Germans gained control of Denmark, the Channel and southern North Sea were considered by the British to be too risky for such railcar ferries, or for the other traffic there, leave ships for soldiers going home and returning to duty. Instead, the French allocated to Britain sole use of a rail mainline Rennes-Laval-Le Mans-Alancon-Rouen-Abancourt-Amiens-Arras. British equipment and crews were moved to France to operate that line. Supplies of various kinds were moved Britain-France to type-assigned ports, as indicated on the map below. British trains moved on shared French lines from St. Nazaire/Donges/Nantes, Brest, St. Malo, Cherbourg, Caen, Le Havre, Fecamp and Dieppe to the nearest junction with the aforementioned British mainline.

My inference from all this is that British rolling stock was able to operate on French trackage without modification...because, AFAIK, none of the lines shared by the French with the British, or allocated solely to the British, either were re-gauged or required the use of modified or purpose-acquired British rolling stock.

UK-NWE-Flanders-i_zpsg1bjwulr.jpg
 
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